Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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yes, please do. Personality is more important than muscles, popularity, and a "bad boy" reputation all put together.

If you focus solely on the idea of girls only liking a***holes, and that all girls are shallow b*****s, then the personality you develop from these concepts will not be attractive.

In my experience, beating up other people turned women off to me... so no disagreements there...


Unfortunately, the image of who I am is sufficiently weird enough that there are no women in existence that are even partially compatible with me... so I have no choice but to mold my own image into something that fulfills the expectations of another...


If I can't define them, how the hell am I supposed to be able to understand them? If I can't understand them, how the hell am I supposed to be able to do anything about the situation?

Weird isn't bad, in my opinion - just makes it easier to know when something isn't working. Personally, I enjoy being weird... filters out a lot of those who I wouldn't match up well with. If you are comfortable with your own self, then others can be too - when you aren't, then they will react accordingly. You can't continually attempt to meet the expectations of others, or you'll never really live. Try to understand that they are not like the laws of physics, but more like doing advanced modern chemistry in the dark with unlabeled bottles by someone with the scientific knowledge of, let's say, the 11th century. More like tuning on an analog dial than dialing in a specific frequency, there is a lot of grey.

Cyberman, sunshower - my thanks to you both.


M.

It's true you have to be yourself and loving yourself certainly helps!

However I still feel more self conscious when I am around a girl I like or possibly see as being a mate. It sucks, I am that afraid of being denied.

Even though I've had sex partners, I still just want to be in love and have a real partner that I actually like more than just physical sex.

Sex is not interesting enough.

Nice guys will always finish last because women want to much even if some say they want nice guys they are lying they don't want nice because women always say the nice guy won't perform in the bedroom.

I'm surprised how little this gets mentioned - the 'no weirdos' rule. You can get away with being ugly, obnoxious, poor, etc - but if you're 'weird,' that's unforgivable for ~99% of women (for most men, everything is forgivable for the right body). Of course, being a Nazi in Nazi Germany was normal, for example (genocide is perfectly normal behaviour in the right circumstances, and most people will torture in the right social setting), but never mind. Note that that 99% includes many girls who are weird themselves. This may be a harsh thing to say on WP, but for most girls weirdness (actual weirdness, not trendy, pretendy showman weirdness) is about as attractive as leprosy.





Only if 'being yourself' = standard, normal behaviour. Example: a guy who doesn't like to dance and tells people he doesn't like to dance (i.e. doesn't pretend he likes dancing just to fit in). Result: Nobody will believe him (assumption is he's self conscious about it - everyone will equate 'I don't like dancing' with 'I don't know how to dance but am too chicken to say it') and everyone will look down on him for saying it. If on the other hand 'being yourself' means being crazy about dancing, then being yourself will help. 'Be yourself' = 'Be yourself, my way, or I won't like you,' in practice.

I've never had problems with women, being the nice guy. I've always had a respectful demeanor, which is considered compassionate by many. It doesn't help that I'm 5'2" either... But nope, no problems what so ever. A real nice guy always wins in the end. Most of my ex girlfriends actually dated me because I'm a nice guy. Find a nice girl to suit you.. They do exist.

Does it really? Taken too far and it's narcisism and very unpleasant for other people. On the other hand, not loving herself didn't prevent Marilyn Monroe being loved by everyone else.

Just exactly what are the characteristics of a "Jerk/as*hole/dickhead"? That is, when talk about women liking these kinds of guys...

I think it has to do with not being able to understand and identify what's seen in general as joking/fooling around confidently as opposed to what tends to be seen as being a "Jerk/as*hole/dickhead". Since what's literally stated can be considered rude depending on the context, w/o being able to pick the subtle cues that indicate people are joking and having fun, the literal content could be perceived as being rude and so on.

Women create those jerks, the alpha male will casually use large numbers of women because he has learned that he can.

Those women que up to be used by him because they cant resist his physique. They will feign upset at being uncermoniously dumped for the next whore but I dont accept that they honestly believe the alpha male will stay with them.

Interestingly though this does benefit women from a genetic standpoint, their collective queing habits creates an artificial shortage of women, keeping beta males out of the next generation and raising the value of all females in the pool.

My observations of alpha males (and I know a few) show them to be underachieving wasters (why make an effort when your genes are assured access to the next generation) who have the most obscene contempt for the women they despoil, they are however very good looking.

I believe the continued existance of beta males is due to a) their ability to act in roles other than dominating and impregnating (invention, organisation, teamwork, logistics etc) increasing the overall fitness of the group. This in turn has created social structures that ensure a certain number of beta males gain access to females. Thus instead of alpha and hareem you get alpha, surrounded by betas, picking, choosing and stealing at will whatever females he chooses (a much more hardy arrangement).

Depends who is talking. For me, it's the user kind - the sort of guy that has zero qualms about manipulating others, including emotionally, to gain any advantage, including mere entertainment, with no regard of consequences for any other than himself. The sort of guy that has contempt for women, but does see them as a valuable source of sex, housework and, possibly, money, social status, etc (he does not hate women, he sees them like he would cattle - they're useful). Often, it is obvious to everyone except the woman in question that he's merely using her for that sort of thing - but when he gets bored of her she'll wonder why he won't give her the time of the day. From everything that I've seen, there is a strong correlation between being this sort of man and success with women - and before I'm clobbered for posting this, I will sooner believe what I've personally witnessed than other people's stories about the good guy getting the girl - you know, fiction.

Narcissism is only really narcissism (as in anything resembling actual NPD) if you appear oblivious to the feelings of others. I'm aware that I and perhaps you too may have trouble with this, but at least making an effort to be friendly and accommodating should evade just appearing like a jerk.

A combination of the aforementioned self-confidence, trying to be polite yet firm and appearing interested in other people has helped me make friends in college, at least. I'm not happy about my indefinite single-ness but I'm happy in most other respects.

I've known some real sexist jerks who seem to be in and out of a relationship all the time. I sometimes wonder what makes their sometimes quite attractive girlfriends fall for them. Were their fathers like this? At the same time, some of my friends are in relationships and I think quite highly of them and their girlfriends - as far as I'm aware, the people I'm thinking of are respectful and egalitarian towards the opposite sex.

I'm not quite sure what I lack in comparison to them. I like to think of it as a "cutting edge", it's fittingly ambiguous and has a sort of a ring to it.

Quite different from my experience; my differences were what attracted my partners to me. Being yourself doesn't mean overwhelming the other person with your persona or pressing it onto others... I think sometimes the belief is that to be oneself it has to be spraypainted on the world like neon graffiti... when the reality can be much, much different.


M.

That depends on the differences; to go back to my example, a guy exceptionally talented and passionate about tango, would be 'different' (not 'average') but wouldn't be classified as 'abnormal' or 'defective.' But a guy not interested in dancing at all would immediately be labeled 'defective.' You're allowed to like dancing to varying degrees (because 'everyone' does) and being good at something popular is always good, but you're not allowed not to like it. Or take music, you're allowed a wide range of genres (because 'everyone' is crazy about music), you can be different in liking a somewhat unusual one, or in being exceptionally passionate about it, but you wouldn't be 'allowed' to not like music, or just like classical ('boring' -> defective).

A difference that doesn't go against the grain of what 'everyone' is like is acceptable or even an advantage; differences that do go against the grain are like leprosy, even if you never press it unto others and are discrete about your interests (you don't go about telling everybody 'I hate dancing' or 'I don't like music, no genre whatsoever'). This is why I called it the 'no weirdos' rule - a rich and charismatic guy is not the norm, but this technical abnormality doesn't make him a 'weirdo.'

Being classified as a weirdo (and hence undateable) means that you're different in some way that goes against the grain of 'being my way', esp. if it includes being socially clueless.