This "nice guys vs jerks" nonsense has to stop.

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You know, to a degree so am I because I am a nice guy and I actually DO get the girls, there is absolutely, imho, no such thing as "nice guy v jerk", it's all fabricated, I've had 3 relationships thus far and there has been a potential 2 others that could have happened (the girls liked me) that did not because of situations beyond my control, the 3 that did happen all failed because of problems on the partners I chose, due to my kind and caring nature I was not to blame for the relationships failing, I just believe all 3 of my exes were wrong for me for various undisclosed reasons which I cannot discuss, I've since moved on and know that I think I've actually found Miss Right, and if things go further with her I shall keep you all posted

Being "fake and dishonest" is a necessary evil in today's dating world. It's something we as a society created for ourselves during the recent history. Since most people are NT, we aspies get the short end of the stick. The truth is that your method won't get quick results, given how society works. When women are in their teens and 20's, nice guys are pretty much SOL, unless they use jerk-like marketing. So I see nothing doing what you call "being fake and dishonest". Luckily, as women his their 30's, they start being more open to dating nice guys. But unless you want to wait until then, do what you gotta do.

One other thing: I read somewhere that once you have sex with a girl, a lot of things change. (This obviously doesn't refer to drunken one-night stands, prostitution, or non-consensual sex.) Instead of looking for excuses to reject you in favor of a guy who's more "alpha", she's going to look for excuses to stay with you. The reason for that is evolutionary. For millions of years, contraception didn't exist, and having sex almost always led to producing offspring. So, a woman needed to get a man to stay, so he could help her raise the child, thus, increasing the odds of his/her survival. Now, we have condoms, birth control pills, Norplant, Depo-Provera shots, diaphragms, and what have you, but the millions-years-old instinct is still going strong. Use it to your advantage. Even if you stop being "fake", the girl will most likely still be attracted to you, because you've gotten past that first barrier (or to make it funny, first hump). Should she leave you after you two had sex, you still won in a way, because you were able to get her to think of you as a sex partner in the first place.

There are plenty of literature out there on how to be more attractive to women, both online and in book stores. Those books pretty much teach you the jerk marketing tactics. The caveat is that in most of them, at most 25% of material is of any use for AS guys, but those 25% are truly priceless. The cost ranges from $15 to $90 per order. If you don't have ethical qualms about using torrent sites, they have those books on there too. With that said, using torrent sites is one thing, but don't use your new knowledge to manipulate girls or to use them for sex and dump them shortly after. I'm not a romantic person, but even I say it's wrong. And remember: the greater results a website promises, the most likely its books are to be crap.

I thought that was the way it was when I was in my 20s and kept getting rejected. That once I'm in my 30s women will see me for the nice guy I am and want to be with me. All through my 30s i thought that. I still got rejected. I'm 41 now. I'm not lookignt o just have sex i can get that if I want. I want a relationship. I'm so sick and tired of people rejecting me I don't even try because i know thats what going to happen. I'm frustrated sad an lonely about the whole thing and been trying to think of the best way to end it because I don't want to live like this and don't know what else I can do. I feel I tryed everything.

Well, maybe that's not true for all women. But I did say "more open to dating nice guys", rather than "universally open to dating nice guys". Anyway, my methods in the dating world borrow greatly from marketing. When you run a business, it's a good idea to ask yourself: "who are my potential customers?", "who is likely to buy my goods or services?", and "who has needs that I can fill?" If you want to sell widgets (a generic reference to a manufactured product, commonly used in accounting), would you ask yourself these questions before you start selling them in the first place? Or would just set up shop in any old place? Similarly, you gotta ask yourself the same question when looking for a girlfriend, except in that case, the service being sold would be a relationship with you.

So, who can be your potential girlfriend? Who is likely to want a relationship with you? Who has relationship needs that only a nice guy can fill? Think about these questions. I thought about it years ago. My target "customers" are girls who aren't likely to be approached by jerks. Quite often, this includes girls fairly low on the attractiveness scale, because jerks avoid them, knowing they can do "better". I, on the other hand, see them as an under-served market; they want good relationships, but can't always get them, so I'm there to deliver what they want. I'm not a good-looking guy by any means, but they're aware of their own looks, so they're not likely to be picky about that. (For a business parallel, a low-wage worker isn't likely to be out buying lobster and caviar.) In the end, I find the relationship I want, and she finds the relationship she wants. No manipulation is involved, and everything is done ethically.

In the end, think of dating as a combination of evolutionary biology and business marketing. Then read up on those topics as much as you can. Then, you should have a much better idea of how to get around and work your way up in this mess our society created for itself.

This is a comical way to put it, but very refreshing. Somehwere far back in this thread (or another similar thread) I went on a rant about how guys who only attempt (and fail) to attract hot women shouldn't be ranting that "women only like jerks" when what they actually mean is "the hot women that me and every other guy wants only like jerks". I stuck up for the Plain Janes like myself who got sick of having men look right through us at the hottie while saying "why aren't women attracted to me". But while other men saw a Plain Jane (or more accurately, didn't see anything at all because they looked only at the hottie), you saw "an under-served market" and capitalized on that realization. I love your quip that dating is like a combination of evolutionary biology and business marketing. You earlier post about consciously making out a list of what you have to offer is also an excellent idea. "I'm a nice guy" is far too vague and has no marketing "hook".

How about "I'm a nice guy and have a big **** ? Will that work for a hook?

I see the winkie and I know you're just being flip but have you ever seen the movie "Roller Boogie"? It ends with the main character's sad realization that this really is all he has going for him. It's one of the most tragic movies about sex that I've ever seen.

Amnesty International should be informed. Maybe people wouldn't want to play if you wore an Amy Winehouse mask? I'm pretty sure people would leave me alone if I did.



Can't win here. Some guys would call that asking for it. This game sucks.



Then how come in movies and TV shows you see women pour their drinks on or slap the guys that hit on them sometimes? Is it because that is nonverbal communication so it doesn't hurt as much as being told verbally?



Because false hope is so much better? NTs are strange at times.



All the time? That sounds difficult, but if it's what I'm supposed to do I guess I'd better try.

I have to keep these intrusive non sexual thoughts at bay. Oh no! The word bay got me thinking of waves at a beach with seagulls flying around, there's nothing explicitly sexual about that. Ok Goat, think of the seagull as the shape of a Y. Now morph that Y into a female body part. Thinkin' dirty. Arrrgh! An intrusive non sexual thought about whether clear really is a color. And now a thought about the economy.

How do these guys think about sex all of the time?



I think it's just one of those things ASers need to memorize. I think they expect you to be dishonest back. If you responded to "let's just be friends" knowing that they meant they didn't want to see you again and you respond with with "oh, well f**k off then" that wouldn't go over very well. I believe that would be a social faux pas. I guess it would be right to just say "ok" or something and not talk to her again unless she approaches.



Unless you get married. From what I've observed of couples that get married, they tend to stop clubbing right after they get married anyway.



Back to nice guys vs. jerks. Again.

I was under the impression that a true jerk doesn't leave the Plain Janes out. A true jerk would get the hot girl for show and subsequently cheat on her with several plain Janes who would be more desperate and easy to manipulate in his mind.

And then you have the guy that says "I love you", that actually means "I don't love you, i just want an easy lay for the next few months until you get too clingy or i find something better".

touche'

It's not always as easy as that. As I said on page 13:



As for this:



That has to be the quickest route to a break-up. As soon as they see you aren't really like that and in fact they have been dating a facade, your relationship is over no matter how good you actually are. If they've spent days or even weeks believing you are something you aren't, how can they trust you in general?

EDIT: Dunno what went wrong but I ended up quoting myself.

Last edited by CrinklyCrustacean on 21 Jul 2009, 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

I see a lot of it written in so many ways including cynicism. I don't think identifying and classifying is as simple as that with humans since we all have our own unique personas, behaviors, likes, dislikes, and not to mention feelings not so easily clear to identify or channel in the appropriate ways. Misplaced anger and facts relied upon distorted views in how we percieve our own experiences ain't the best ways in solving what we can't acknowledge. So I'm just going to give my own input and insight of my experiences regarding aspergers and the observations I've seen in many posts. Note that my personal feelings regarding this thread doesn't mean I think I'm right or know what's really going on. I'm just going by the very patterns and emotions I've seen in myself and the very similarities and differentiations in what I've seen in these threads.


I don't consider myself physically attractive and my self esteem is.....dare I say low. Yet most of the girls whom I've observed doing most of the dating are both attractive and not so attractive. 2 similarities between girls and guys regardless of looks is how they interact and socialize with eachother. Most of the "successful" girls I see dating the most are the very ones that either do the asking or show a great effort in interest. Their effort is far more intense and noticeably focused on their target. The interactions look overlyemphasized like actors at a theatrical performance. I'm only stating the obvious which may not be true of all girls. The obvious hints I notice from afar are the very things I use to overlook before I was diagnosed with aspergers. These hints involve a lot of nervous smiling, direct eye contact, higher pitch voices than usual, exaggerated facial expressions, upright posture, flipping their hair, some physical touching like a gentle pat on the shoulder, lot's of giggling, too much chattering by relating with their own scenarios, and that look which is a little hard to describe and yet looks more obvious than most of the social clues. Seems to work for most of them after I've observed just to find out later the very guys they're going out with. So I think confidence is a big one and not exclusive to guys in the ritual of dating.

My interactions with people in general are not only poor but usually misinterpreted. I've had a number of people assume I'm either unhappy, angry or uninterested. I even had some people goes as far to say how they're first impression of me was that of a b***h or snob before getting to know me. Might be my stoic facial expressions as well as the trouble I have in how my voice projects with that of a monotonous tone or tone in which is usually out of context with what I'm saying in a speech or recording. My body language also looks noticable out of character but something in which I'm more aware of now. I don't get the scrutiny as I did a few years ago by both my family and teachers. They said it looked like I was either in a hurry when I was walking or not paying attention or sleeping whenever my head was down while listening to lectures. I also got the same accusation made by a couple of guys I went out with. So I'm pretty sure I'm not the easiest person to figure out and if anything.....I probably look a bit intimidating. I wasn't aware of these little clues and how their roles played a significant role in how I might've been percieved.

I think what baffles me though on this forum is the amount of guys that claim they've either never dated, had sex, or been asked out is much higher if not exclusive to males. Am I the only female....who's nice that's still single?

As far as the topic is concerned I don't really believe in the theory of guys finishing last. I do however wonder if NT females are more sensative or aware of social cues than NT men. Not that I'm saying all NT women are like this in general but most of the few friends I made were guys. So it does make me wonder....yet I really don't think women have it lucky. I consider myself sensative and nice....but I don't use the word nice since culturally it's acceptable for women to be so. The only guys I've attracted came off either aggressive or thugish. Yet I have known some women real into men who are dominant thus jerk? But I've also known many females like myself who would rather be with a guy who isn't as rough or mean.

The topic is still confusing as hell...mainly because I can relate to guys on one hand. But on the otherhand, I've seen females like my sister to be the opposite. Most of these females who go for the quiet or intraverted type I think do the approaching...from what I've seen. But I don't see the quiet or intraverted types as exactly the nice type. My sister broke up with 2 guys that fit these profiles but from what she said...they weren't exactly nice or treated her right. This is a double whammy for me....since most NTs play the dating game until they find someone they'll hang out with more than a couple of months. Hell, I've even seen NTs complain about how hard dating is including women.

Anyway...maybe I'm going off topic and getting wordy. This is the only forum I've seen where the amount of men claim not only are they still single but nice. Not that I doubt most of the guys here are. But if this were true...then why have I seen females date nice guys and why am I finding myself to be the minority of aspie females still single?

I don't normally rant that it's the guys' faults for wanting hot superficial looking women....ok I use to but I'm over that now...even though it's mostly true. This because I've seen women who don't look all ideally great do a lot of dating. So it's an issue I ask myself...what I'm doing wrong or the fact that I can't compete with attractive women. I also notice that I'm not the only one that does this. I see an awful lot of females do more complaining about their weight, looks, and factors involving themselves rather than the other genders. This doesn't mean it's exclusive to females or that females b***h about guys too. But I see more guys NT or aspie gripe about the other gender of external factors as to why they're either depressed, single, frustrated, alone and so on. So I'm wondering if this isn't mostly a guy thing.

Again I'm not trying to generalize one exclusive characte onto one gender and the other. These are just observations I see on most forums and from past experiences with both sexes. The contrasts are striking....but again therein lies the issue of generalizations. This is one of the reasons why I've decided in getting more honest in these forums. I think I'm done with worrying about not being nice enough or how I come off too males and females irl and on the forum....which is something I use to do constantly. My only regard is that I be respectful concerning both opinions without going off on a tangent and not to disregard one's experience as exclusive.

In other words, I too am frustrated in the dating world. I'm also tired of the games in which getting any kind of attention by the opposite sex is good compared to someone who's been rejected or ignored. I don't know....maybe it's me, but I'm not seeing many female aspies give their own insights or problems regarding relationships and dating. Then again, Maybe I'm of the minority since aspergers seems to be more dominate in males than females. But if both sides of the coin were looked without the scrutiny of one being exclusive to another's problems....maybe we would get a bigger picture no matter how imperfect.

The interesting theory about this nice guys is similar in how I felt regarding aspergers. In my experience, it wasn't so much the concerns of dating but being walked all over and used. Yet, I never considered my outter shell of being nice as how people defined me. In fact, I felt very frustrated that I couldn't express my true feelings or tastes without coming off as a dork or the stereotypical nice girl who doesn't have anything interesting going on in her head except homework and studying. Not that aspergers is exclusive to these problems, but friendships require the effort in social interaction. Well friendships have never come easy to me since I'm percieved differently than how I really feel. As I've read, the need for social interaction is something the diagnosis aspergers lacks in. Even though I'm not a loner, it isn't instinctive of me just to call someone up or go over someone's house whom I'm either interested in or want to get to know.

Add these issues onto feelings of attraction then it gets very frustrating. You don't know how you come off to the other person or have a clue in how to express these feelings "appropriately". Once you do, your vulnerability is out in the open. This not only one trait associated with ASD but also for those on the autistic spectrum.

In short, dating is somewhat of a game...yet for some it seems to come natural like a way of flirting. Anyway, here's a female's issue on it....very frustrating.

^ Thankyou MissConstrue for sharing your experiences. I really appreciate it, and it was very eye opening. I have not yet properly shared my personal experience with dating (as opposed to my opinions) but your openness and honesty has encouraged me to do so.

I too am single, although I have been in one relationship in the past, which lasted 7 months. Like many AS guys on here, I am a virgin. Dating, and relationships, doesn't come easily or naturally for me.

In a very few cases, people have openly and straightforwardly expressed interest in dating me. In these cases I unfortunately haven't felt the same way back. In a larger number of cases, I have suspected people of expressing interest in me (and in one or two of those cases, I have felt a connection back). However, I do not trust my own instincts when it comes to this, as I could be reading the body language completely wrong. Furthermore, I am unable to open up and allow my feelings to deepen due to both trust issues and fear of deep hurting and suffering. Twice before I have read those signals wrongly, and allowed myself to fall so deeply for the individuals in question that I suffered for years (literally, I'm talking about around 8-9 years of my life here) from miserable unrequited love. In the meantime, I would rather be alone than have this happen again due to AS misunderstanding of social cues.

So if I start feeling something for someone, I find myself automatically forcibly quenching those feelings while my mind says; "don't be ridiculous, there's no way they like you back, plus you could never meet their standards". I've become very efficient at this, probably too efficient. I'm worried about taking risks because I know the consequences firsthand.

QFT. I will never pretend to be someone or soemthing I'm not just for the sake of getting a girl. Once someone sees you have been deceiving them, they can't trust you, relationship is over.