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What is "creepy"?

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mds_02
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02 Aug 2012, 4:55 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
Is it really so difficult for a woman to say to herself "that guy's probably okay, but I'm gonna behave in a safety conscious fashion anyway?" I mean, why is it necessary to label men (the vast majority of whom have never, and would never, harm anyone) "creepy" in order to keep yourself from harm?


Because "creepy" doesn't mean "I know for sure this person is a rapist/murderer/steals strangers pantyhose to jerk off in them"
it means "this person makes me uncomfortable" and usually "this person crossed a boundary of mine"

No one has a right to my body, my attention, or my good opinion that I am violating by not providing

Assault is only relevant because Women who aren't vigilant in this way are blamed for their assault if it does happen. It's about minimizing risk but it's also about minimizing culpability.

This whole thing just seems like policing women's rejection. Our "no"s aren't acceptable unless we use the right vocabulary.
I don't need to make a case beyond a reasonable doubt to the council of man feelings before I decide to frown at the guy on the street telling me how pretty I'd be if I smiled (dance monkey dance) or before I think he's a creep.


And what about the guys who get labelled creepy without having actually done anything wrong? What about the women who make a point of treating every man rudely, just for sharing a gender with most rapists? I mean, clearly that does happen, some of those women have posted in this very thread.

I said very clearly that I do not have a problem with women acting cautiously. Nor do I have a problem with calling guys creepy who actually do creepy things. But there are a lot of guys being called that, being treated as likely predators, whose only sin was being male.


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02 Aug 2012, 5:00 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
If you want to have a conversation, a conversation can happen. If you want to namecall, you can do that. You can't have both.

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02 Aug 2012, 5:08 pm

mds_02 wrote:
And what about the guys who get labelled creepy without having actually done anything wrong? What about the women who make a point of treating every man rudely, just for sharing a gender with most rapists? I mean, clearly that does happen, some of those women have posted in this very thread.

I said very clearly that I do not have a problem with women acting cautiously. Nor do I have a problem with calling guys creepy who actually do creepy things. But there are a lot of guys being called that, being treated as likely predators, whose only sin was being male.


exactly. Theres nothing wrong with being cautious, or prepared. But there is plenty wrong on treating everyone rudely with hate who has done nothing to deserve it besides being a gender.

And because i know the next thing yall will say is about how women are always victims. You remmeber that group of pretty killers I posted? There was more to picking them than just saying they are good looking. It was to show that they can be good looking, male or female, and can go for targets of either genders. But again, its easier to play single handed victim. Lets consider one of the bigger news this year with the whole deblacle in penn state. Where for YEARS nobody dared speak out about 40+ male victims. So dont pretend its just women that have to watch their backs. I have 3 MALE family members and 6 male friends who have been sexually abused in their lives. I actually know more sexually abused men than women. That doesnt mean the pain is any less for either, but if you're to play victim to justify negative thoughts on a gender atleast play the role right



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02 Aug 2012, 5:31 pm

can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach


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spongy
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02 Aug 2012, 5:38 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach


There is a member that just stated that whenever she goes hiking she labels every man as a creep about three pages ago.
Its been multiquoted by several people and its what some members have been discussing since then



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02 Aug 2012, 5:42 pm

They often think up stereotypes like "all guys look at porn" which sounds similar to the creep label, and I also know that isn't true since I don't look at it myself.



DogsWithoutHorses
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02 Aug 2012, 5:47 pm

mds_02 wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
Is it really so difficult for a woman to say to herself "that guy's probably okay, but I'm gonna behave in a safety conscious fashion anyway?" I mean, why is it necessary to label men (the vast majority of whom have never, and would never, harm anyone) "creepy" in order to keep yourself from harm?


Because "creepy" doesn't mean "I know for sure this person is a rapist/murderer/steals strangers pantyhose to jerk off in them"
it means "this person makes me uncomfortable" and usually "this person crossed a boundary of mine"

No one has a right to my body, my attention, or my good opinion that I am violating by not providing

Assault is only relevant because Women who aren't vigilant in this way are blamed for their assault if it does happen. It's about minimizing risk but it's also about minimizing culpability.

This whole thing just seems like policing women's rejection. Our "no"s aren't acceptable unless we use the right vocabulary.
I don't need to make a case beyond a reasonable doubt to the council of man feelings before I decide to frown at the guy on the street telling me how pretty I'd be if I smiled (dance monkey dance) or before I think he's a creep.


And what about the guys who get labelled creepy without having actually done anything wrong? What about the women who make a point of treating every man rudely, just for sharing a gender with most rapists? I mean, clearly that does happen, some of those women have posted in this very thread.

I said very clearly that I do not have a problem with women acting cautiously. Nor do I have a problem with calling guys creepy who actually do creepy things. But there are a lot of guys being called that, being treated as likely predators, whose only sin was being male.


Ok, I think I see the disconnect here in what we're saying.

The issue is guys getting called creepy when they aren't actually creepy. But...
There isn't some set standard to creepiness that someone either meets or doesn't meet. There are no objective criteria, it's a subjective assessment. What creeps one person out might not creep another person out, people have different boundaries. So one person might be okay with someone touching their hair and complimenting it, in that instance, not creepy. I would not be okay with that and if someone did it t me I would feel creeped out and so they would have been creepy.
Saying someone creeped you out is a declaration of a feeling you had, people with different boundaries might disagree with you about the creepiness of the action, but you still felt creeped out.

You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"

So I agree that mislabeling someone is wrong, but I don't think there is a way for anyone but the person expressing the feeling to know how accurate it is or is not.


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02 Aug 2012, 5:53 pm

Venger wrote:
They often think up stereotypes like "all guys look at porn" which sounds similar to the creep label, and I also know that isn't true since I don't look at it myself.
when you decide that 'they' must label all men as creepy because 'they' supposedly said all men look at porn, you are passing an unfair judgement on them as it is not based on fact.


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02 Aug 2012, 5:56 pm

spongy wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach


There is a member that just stated that whenever she goes hiking she labels every man as a creep about three pages ago.
Its been multiquoted by several people and its what some members have been discussing since then


eh
There is a difference between "all men" and "all men who try to engage me when I am alone in an isolated location"


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02 Aug 2012, 6:00 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
spongy wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach


There is a member that just stated that whenever she goes hiking she labels every man as a creep about three pages ago.
Its been multiquoted by several people and its what some members have been discussing since then


eh
There is a difference between "all men" and "all men who try to engage me when I am alone in an isolated location"

Not sure if you have noticed but members here seem to jump to semi-related topics quite frequently without meaning any harm(it happens in every section and just about any topic) I was just pointing her out how it started.



mds_02
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02 Aug 2012, 6:06 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Saying someone creeped you out is a declaration of a feeling you had, people with different boundaries might disagree with you about the creepiness of the action, but you still felt creeped out.

You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"


See that's the part I disagree with. Saying that someone creeped you out, and that they are thus creepy, implies that the person has done something objectively wrong.

Saying "I am uncomfortable when I find myself alone with a man I do not know" gets the point across without placing blame on the (most likely completely innocent) other person.

I am not arguing that women are not entitled to their feelings. I am arguing that they should not shift the responsibility for those feelings onto other people.


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02 Aug 2012, 6:06 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
Venger wrote:
They often think up stereotypes like "all guys look at porn" which sounds similar to the creep label, and I also know that isn't true since I don't look at it myself.
when you decide that 'they' must label all men as creepy because 'they' supposedly said all men look at porn, you are passing an unfair judgement on them as it is not based on fact.


I know it's an unfair/untrue stereotype about men though. You've never heard it before?



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02 Aug 2012, 6:07 pm

spongy wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
spongy wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach


There is a member that just stated that whenever she goes hiking she labels every man as a creep about three pages ago.
Its been multiquoted by several people and its what some members have been discussing since then


eh
There is a difference between "all men" and "all men who try to engage me when I am alone in an isolated location"

Not sure if you have noticed but members here seem to jump to semi-related topics quite frequently without meaning any harm(it happens in every section and just about any topic) I was just pointing her out how it started.


I do agree with you that that's the post people are probably thinking of when they claim there are women on this forum who are just terrible to "all men".
I was just stating why that's a flawed interpretation of what she wrote.
Nothing on you.


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hyperlexian
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02 Aug 2012, 6:10 pm

spongy wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
can someone point me to where any member on this forum has ever stated that every man should be treated or labeled as a creep? it is no possible to have an open and honest dialogue when people are being accused of behaving in a way that there is no factual basis for concluding. some members are deciding that some female members behave a certain way when there is no basis for concluding such. demonising members based on nonsense is also unfair discrimination, so practice what you preach


There is a member that just stated that whenever she goes hiking she labels every man as a creep about three pages ago.
Its been multiquoted by several people and its what some members have been discussing since then

except that she didn't say that:

Quote:
I go hiking regularly. Guess what, I give a hard look at every single guy who walks by me and if he says "hi" I DO NOT RESPOND.

looking at people cautiously is not labeling them as creeps. there is a big distinction between those two ideas.

she took one single situation where she is generally cautious and said that IF people behave a certain way, then she reacts to it. there is no logical way to draw the conclusion that she labels ALL men as creeps from that situation.

it's like there is a chasm between what people are saying an d the conclusions that other members are drawing.


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hyperlexian
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02 Aug 2012, 6:16 pm

Venger wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Venger wrote:
They often think up stereotypes like "all guys look at porn" which sounds similar to the creep label, and I also know that isn't true since I don't look at it myself.
when you decide that 'they' must label all men as creepy because 'they' supposedly said all men look at porn, you are passing an unfair judgement on them as it is not based on fact.


I know it's an unfair/untrue stereotype about men though. You've never heard it before?

sure i've heard it before, and it is definitely unfair. but that has nothing to do with being labeled "creepy", and if you decide that someone who says that "all men watch porn" must label "all men are creepy", it does not make logical sense (and it is equally unfair)


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02 Aug 2012, 6:21 pm

mds_02 wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Saying someone creeped you out is a declaration of a feeling you had, people with different boundaries might disagree with you about the creepiness of the action, but you still felt creeped out.

You can't know what's upsetting to another person, because the is no objective standard for "creepy" you can't really tell people "that feeling you feel is wrong because if I was in your situation I wouldn't have that feeling"


See that's the part I disagree with. Saying that someone creeped you out, and that they are thus creepy, implies that the person has done something objectively wrong.

Saying "I am uncomfortable when I find myself alone with a man I do not know" gets the point across without placing blame on the (most likely completely innocent) other person.

I am not arguing that women are not entitled to their feelings. I am arguing that they should not shift the responsibility for those feelings onto other people.


Creepy is a descriptor, much like, pretty or ugly or hot that is in the eye of the beholder.
If I say a guy is hot do I have to have evidence that other people would agree with to support that claim? Is it okay for me to think someone is beautiful without other people thinking they are beautiful or the person themselves realizing they are beautiful? Those are judgements very much based on my feelings and who I am as a person not objective action either right or wrong.


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