Will I have to become what I hate?

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ladyelaine
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05 Jan 2018, 7:52 pm

AngelRho wrote:
ladyelaine wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
Sly wouldn’t abuse women. He was simply implying that a lot of women don’t care if their man does.

Indeed. I wonder about that. My working theory is some women find something about the drama abuse cycles to be addictive. I really can’t understand it any other way. It’s like, “This guy is DIFFERENT. He’s just like my ex but he would never slap me around.” Until he DOES slap her around and she calls the police on him for domestic abuse. And then she bails him out of jail, disregards the restraining order if she has one, forgives him, and goes right back to him.

Then breaks up with him for another guy. Who is DIFFERENT this time...

I think there are a number of situations like that in which for HER it’s more of a kink. She doesn’t consciously recognize it as a kink, but it is. What makes it worse is her guy really is dangerous and there are no boundaries between fantasy role-play and actual abuse—because the man really is like that. He’s not playing a role. He’s serious.

I strongly suspect my ex of being one of those girls who’d have preferred that I knocked her around somewhat. Not enough to leave a mark, just enough to excite her. Trouble is, I really don’t know how far too far is. I wouldn’t have known the difference between her trying to tell me she wants to be pushed around and forced versus she was genuinely upset with me. I live by “when in doubt, DON’T.” Ok, so I never did and I never will, and I broke up with her.

I can’t help but wonder if something like that isn’t more often the case than we’d like to admit.


The truly abusive men I know are masters of manipulation. They don't let it all show at first. It will gradually slip into their behavior while they gaslight the woman into believing that what happened wasn't his fault, but hers. They make sure the rest of the world thinks they are a nice guy, and that all makes it worse: people are always praising the guy to the woman, and that reinforces to her that it must be her, not him. By the time they are letting the abusive behavior show to the world, she is so far "sold" that she isn't capable of believing it is him and not her.

This is a very complicated subject that I do happen to have quite a decent amount of history with but don't think is appropriate for this thread. The short summary is that the women are manipulated. They don't choose it.


I have known guys like that. The abuse cycle is a hard cycle to break. A lady in my community was recently killed by her abuser because she tried to leave him for good. Some women don't make it out alive.

It’s not that women end up abused so much that bothers me for the sake of THIS discussion. It’s that women get out of those relationships only to get into new relationships that are about the same or worse. What happened with me was a role reversal. For me, once I got out, I reflected on all that happened and made up my mind I would NEVER date that type of woman or end up in that kind of relationship. A lot of women I’m sure do step back and see those men for what they are. I have a hard understanding women who end up in a string of abusive relationships.

I do agree that men are manipulators. All of us are to certain degrees. We want sex or a relationship so we put our best face forward and control as much of our environment to elicit a desired response that leads to us getting what we want. That’s just human nature and women do it, too.

But certain men... my wife’s ex-bf was one of those. After we had him arrested, one of my profs gave me a hard time and said I should have stayed out of it. A few people said I should have just minded my own business. And this guy got as many people as he could without resorting to subpoenas to be character witnesses. I think we got lucky because the judge could see right through the charismatic “I’m-such-a-wonderful-guy-everyone-loves-me” bs that always worked on everyone else.

My wife is convinced that had she stayed with him she’d be dead by now.


Some abusers are quite good at making people think they are so wonderful. That's how abusers get victims. They make everyone think the victim is the bad guy so nobody will believe the victim. They make the victim and the victim's family members think they can't live or survive without him. Your wife is right in that she would be dead by now if she had stayed with him.



DW_a_mom
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05 Jan 2018, 8:19 pm

ladyelaine wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ladyelaine wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
Sly wouldn’t abuse women. He was simply implying that a lot of women don’t care if their man does.

Indeed. I wonder about that. My working theory is some women find something about the drama abuse cycles to be addictive. I really can’t understand it any other way. It’s like, “This guy is DIFFERENT. He’s just like my ex but he would never slap me around.” Until he DOES slap her around and she calls the police on him for domestic abuse. And then she bails him out of jail, disregards the restraining order if she has one, forgives him, and goes right back to him.

Then breaks up with him for another guy. Who is DIFFERENT this time...

I think there are a number of situations like that in which for HER it’s more of a kink. She doesn’t consciously recognize it as a kink, but it is. What makes it worse is her guy really is dangerous and there are no boundaries between fantasy role-play and actual abuse—because the man really is like that. He’s not playing a role. He’s serious.

I strongly suspect my ex of being one of those girls who’d have preferred that I knocked her around somewhat. Not enough to leave a mark, just enough to excite her. Trouble is, I really don’t know how far too far is. I wouldn’t have known the difference between her trying to tell me she wants to be pushed around and forced versus she was genuinely upset with me. I live by “when in doubt, DON’T.” Ok, so I never did and I never will, and I broke up with her.

I can’t help but wonder if something like that isn’t more often the case than we’d like to admit.


The truly abusive men I know are masters of manipulation. They don't let it all show at first. It will gradually slip into their behavior while they gaslight the woman into believing that what happened wasn't his fault, but hers. They make sure the rest of the world thinks they are a nice guy, and that all makes it worse: people are always praising the guy to the woman, and that reinforces to her that it must be her, not him. By the time they are letting the abusive behavior show to the world, she is so far "sold" that she isn't capable of believing it is him and not her.

This is a very complicated subject that I do happen to have quite a decent amount of history with but don't think is appropriate for this thread. The short summary is that the women are manipulated. They don't choose it.


I have known guys like that. The abuse cycle is a hard cycle to break. A lady in my community was recently killed by her abuser because she tried to leave him for good. Some women don't make it out alive.

It’s not that women end up abused so much that bothers me for the sake of THIS discussion. It’s that women get out of those relationships only to get into new relationships that are about the same or worse. What happened with me was a role reversal. For me, once I got out, I reflected on all that happened and made up my mind I would NEVER date that type of woman or end up in that kind of relationship. A lot of women I’m sure do step back and see those men for what they are. I have a hard understanding women who end up in a string of abusive relationships.

I do agree that men are manipulators. All of us are to certain degrees. We want sex or a relationship so we put our best face forward and control as much of our environment to elicit a desired response that leads to us getting what we want. That’s just human nature and women do it, too.

But certain men... my wife’s ex-bf was one of those. After we had him arrested, one of my profs gave me a hard time and said I should have stayed out of it. A few people said I should have just minded my own business. And this guy got as many people as he could without resorting to subpoenas to be character witnesses. I think we got lucky because the judge could see right through the charismatic “I’m-such-a-wonderful-guy-everyone-loves-me” bs that always worked on everyone else.

My wife is convinced that had she stayed with him she’d be dead by now.


Some abusers are quite good at making people think they are so wonderful. That's how abusers get victims. They make everyone think the victim is the bad guy so nobody will believe the victim. They make the victim and the victim's family members think they can't live or survive without him. Your wife is right in that she would be dead by now if she had stayed with him.


Seeing these men in real time for who they are is usually very, very difficult.

A friend recently told me that her husband showed no signs of his other self for 2 full years.


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Marknis
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05 Jan 2018, 8:39 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Marknis wrote:
It's a daily struggle to keep from snapping. I don't know how much longer it can last. I'll be 30 this year and if I don't have a girlfriend by then, I don't want to live anymore.


Marknis, it breaks my heart to see you like this. I wish I could do more. But first, I have to remind you, despite knowing you don't want to hear it:

You can't tie your ability to be happy to another person. You've surely heard this a million times. I went through all that at your age and I can tell you that it is the goal itself that is destroying you. You HAVE to be happy with and for yourself. There is no way around it, either in a relationship or alone. My husband and I were both 36 when we got married, and both of us had spent a lot of years wondering if it would ever be in the cards for us. The problem was that we both still had things we needed to learn and do as single individuals, even though we would have denied it at the time (it is something a person can only see after they've finally learned and done those things). I could not have been the partner I am to my husband if I had married him 5 years earlier than I did; it's the simple truth. We weren't ready for each other, and the relationship would have failed.

This is NOT me telling you that you are not worthy of love. You ARE worthy. But to get to D you need to go through A, B and C. What I want you to believe is that D IS out there for you when the time is right, and that your happiness right now depends on you navigating A, B and C, NOT waiting for D. One of those steps certainly is either moving from where you are, or finding enough of "your people" there to build a life within your own bubble. Moving seems like the more likely answer to me from what I've read, but that will be for you to choose.

I want you to envision a day where you could be happy without a girlfriend. Just one day. What would you be doing? Where would you be?


I would either be finally composing music or finally doing actually good drawings. I would be in Austin or atleast out of my mother's home.



ladyelaine
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05 Jan 2018, 9:28 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
ladyelaine wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ladyelaine wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
Sly wouldn’t abuse women. He was simply implying that a lot of women don’t care if their man does.

Indeed. I wonder about that. My working theory is some women find something about the drama abuse cycles to be addictive. I really can’t understand it any other way. It’s like, “This guy is DIFFERENT. He’s just like my ex but he would never slap me around.” Until he DOES slap her around and she calls the police on him for domestic abuse. And then she bails him out of jail, disregards the restraining order if she has one, forgives him, and goes right back to him.

Then breaks up with him for another guy. Who is DIFFERENT this time...

I think there are a number of situations like that in which for HER it’s more of a kink. She doesn’t consciously recognize it as a kink, but it is. What makes it worse is her guy really is dangerous and there are no boundaries between fantasy role-play and actual abuse—because the man really is like that. He’s not playing a role. He’s serious.

I strongly suspect my ex of being one of those girls who’d have preferred that I knocked her around somewhat. Not enough to leave a mark, just enough to excite her. Trouble is, I really don’t know how far too far is. I wouldn’t have known the difference between her trying to tell me she wants to be pushed around and forced versus she was genuinely upset with me. I live by “when in doubt, DON’T.” Ok, so I never did and I never will, and I broke up with her.

I can’t help but wonder if something like that isn’t more often the case than we’d like to admit.


The truly abusive men I know are masters of manipulation. They don't let it all show at first. It will gradually slip into their behavior while they gaslight the woman into believing that what happened wasn't his fault, but hers. They make sure the rest of the world thinks they are a nice guy, and that all makes it worse: people are always praising the guy to the woman, and that reinforces to her that it must be her, not him. By the time they are letting the abusive behavior show to the world, she is so far "sold" that she isn't capable of believing it is him and not her.

This is a very complicated subject that I do happen to have quite a decent amount of history with but don't think is appropriate for this thread. The short summary is that the women are manipulated. They don't choose it.


I have known guys like that. The abuse cycle is a hard cycle to break. A lady in my community was recently killed by her abuser because she tried to leave him for good. Some women don't make it out alive.

It’s not that women end up abused so much that bothers me for the sake of THIS discussion. It’s that women get out of those relationships only to get into new relationships that are about the same or worse. What happened with me was a role reversal. For me, once I got out, I reflected on all that happened and made up my mind I would NEVER date that type of woman or end up in that kind of relationship. A lot of women I’m sure do step back and see those men for what they are. I have a hard understanding women who end up in a string of abusive relationships.

I do agree that men are manipulators. All of us are to certain degrees. We want sex or a relationship so we put our best face forward and control as much of our environment to elicit a desired response that leads to us getting what we want. That’s just human nature and women do it, too.

But certain men... my wife’s ex-bf was one of those. After we had him arrested, one of my profs gave me a hard time and said I should have stayed out of it. A few people said I should have just minded my own business. And this guy got as many people as he could without resorting to subpoenas to be character witnesses. I think we got lucky because the judge could see right through the charismatic “I’m-such-a-wonderful-guy-everyone-loves-me” bs that always worked on everyone else.

My wife is convinced that had she stayed with him she’d be dead by now.


Some abusers are quite good at making people think they are so wonderful. That's how abusers get victims. They make everyone think the victim is the bad guy so nobody will believe the victim. They make the victim and the victim's family members think they can't live or survive without him. Your wife is right in that she would be dead by now if she had stayed with him.


Seeing these men in real time for who they are is usually very, very difficult.

A friend recently told me that her husband showed no signs of his other self for 2 full years.


The abuser acts like the most wonderful guy in the world until they get their victim right where they want them and then they show their true colours.



AngelRho
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05 Jan 2018, 11:51 pm

Marknis wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Marknis wrote:
It's a daily struggle to keep from snapping. I don't know how much longer it can last. I'll be 30 this year and if I don't have a girlfriend by then, I don't want to live anymore.


Marknis, it breaks my heart to see you like this. I wish I could do more. But first, I have to remind you, despite knowing you don't want to hear it:

You can't tie your ability to be happy to another person. You've surely heard this a million times. I went through all that at your age and I can tell you that it is the goal itself that is destroying you. You HAVE to be happy with and for yourself. There is no way around it, either in a relationship or alone. My husband and I were both 36 when we got married, and both of us had spent a lot of years wondering if it would ever be in the cards for us. The problem was that we both still had things we needed to learn and do as single individuals, even though we would have denied it at the time (it is something a person can only see after they've finally learned and done those things). I could not have been the partner I am to my husband if I had married him 5 years earlier than I did; it's the simple truth. We weren't ready for each other, and the relationship would have failed.

This is NOT me telling you that you are not worthy of love. You ARE worthy. But to get to D you need to go through A, B and C. What I want you to believe is that D IS out there for you when the time is right, and that your happiness right now depends on you navigating A, B and C, NOT waiting for D. One of those steps certainly is either moving from where you are, or finding enough of "your people" there to build a life within your own bubble. Moving seems like the more likely answer to me from what I've read, but that will be for you to choose.

I want you to envision a day where you could be happy without a girlfriend. Just one day. What would you be doing? Where would you be?


I would either be finally composing music or finally doing actually good drawings. I would be in Austin or atleast out of my mother's home.

Oh yeeeeeeeaaaaaaashhhhh....how did I forget about you wanting to write music? This might be the ONE THING I can say to you that you’ll find useful.

Composing music is, like, the most sedentary thing anyone can do. You don’t need a tremendous amount of tools. Just start composing. Set aside at least one hour a day just for starters and dedicate yourself to that. If you feel good about it, you can go all night and never bother anyone.

When I’m actually busy with it, I’ll be going between 4-8 hours a day. Right now I’m seriously in the middle of composer’s block that’s been going on nearly a year. My church gig gives me a slight advantage because I’m in a position to reharmonize old hymns or modify new stuff, plus I’m responsible for getting the band’s music together. It’s not actual composing, BUT it keeps me from just going completely to rot.

I also write arrangements for my student ensemble for school performances—nothing above beginner level, but, again, it keeps my brain working creatively.

But my BIG project I’m working on right now, and it’s a massive undertaking that’s going to take me maybe 3 or months working every day: I’m creating a generative music program in PureData based on my master’s thesis equivalent. It’s an extension of serialism that I’ve modified to allow the possibility of tonality. It can have a wide range of applications, but I’m mainly concerned with using it to create relaxing ambient music to help people who have trouble sleeping.

I’ve already written a program that will do this, but it’s very primitive. I always use random elements in my music, which is good in a way because you need variation in order to keep a musical composition going. My current algorithm can generate hours or even days of music that is organically unified but is constantly shifting. It also fails to allow for dynamics or variation in tone color or intensity. The algorithm I’m working on now will directly solve the problem of tone color variation. The first one, while generating musical patterns and variations, orders the central motive and variations in ways that are, well, somewhat chaotic and sloppy. The new one will actually LINK notes with tone colors and rhythm in very specific ways. While this is much more limiting than my previous method, it’s actually more versatile. Quite simply, there are 864 ways the main musical idea can be transformed. Any combination of up to 4 of those sounding simultaneously will give listenable results.

My goal is to use these algorithms as the basis for a mobile app. I’m a long way from this because I have yet to understand the DSP side of PureData. I have to build a virtual synthesizer that uses a minimal amount of memory and still adequately recreate or replace the sounds I use in Logic Pro X. And then there’s the obvious: porting my PureData work to a mobile app development platform.

Prior to learning PD, I’ve had very little functional experience in programming. So I’ll have to start learning how to make iPhone apps just to get started. I want this to be a paid app, also. I need the money! There are already several generative music apps out there already, some developed by heavy hitters in electronic music, so I already know getting noticed is going to be hard. But still, it’s worth trying.

That’s what I’M doing, anyway.

Oh, and very important to know: PureData is free and open source. It will run on any computer. I’m seriously looking into investing in a Raspberry Pi running a Linux distro for possibly making my PureData work into an installation for use in art galleries. It’s also extremely powerful. I watched a video where someone used PD connected to a piano modded with solenoids. You could feed a voice recording into PD and the computer would then have the piano recreate the human voice, like a sort of acoustic version of a vocoder. INSANE. You can do practically anything with it and it costs nothing. The only thing frustrating about it is how much time, patience, and open mind you have to devote to it. Thankfully there are tons of YouTube videos from experts and regular users out there without which I’d never be able to get a sound out of it.

It’s exciting to me. But if your time for composing is lacking or you’re just having too much trouble getting started, consider learning PD. I’m still refining the algorithms I want to use. However, what I actually have right now that’s functional is capable of creating synthesized works, full-length notated works for symphony orchestras, and anything in between.

In preparing to write my first program, I came up with this very basic version while learning basic PD concepts. The sound quality is horrible and I’m using a primitive 12-tone technique which might sound even more unsettling. But you’ll get a rough idea where I’m going musically with PD. I should probably make an updated video. But considering I want to do a paid app based on my work, I don’t want to give too much away.

Nobody can really stop you from composing if you want to do it. Go for it!



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07 Jan 2018, 4:43 pm

sly279 wrote:
Most relationships are fake. People faking to get what they want be it money/status or sex.


I agree completely.

BTDT wrote:
Many Aspies cannot master the art of lying. The lack of proper body language throws up a huge red flag. But, who knows, you may be one of the few exceptions.


After training I can do lying quite well, if needed, even with good body language (I can be a good actor if I care enough). However, first - I do not feel good (unless it is a short joke) and second - it is not real life, just very long show and it is up to everyone how long they want to play.
Thinking and caring is a hard work. The majority is lazy and for them it is more comfortable to live the fake life (it is like choosing to stay in Matrix because the real life is not pretty anyway).

In relationships it is A LOT about looks (and status) - you can not change these easily.
I would never recommend to became somebody else (especially not fake show men as you described).
I do not think that girls desire drungs, smelly, crazy, ignorrant guys. :-) Girls, I think, are just little tired of very passive guys that always have 100 of excuses but 0 solutions (sometimes nicely but fakely called "good guys").

Good solutions and creativity works (on almost anyone :-) ) and in addition if you move and create, you will end up not only with better mood but also with some good product at the end (and I do not mean product as some thing only...)



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07 Jan 2018, 6:10 pm

If you get a good job the girls will like you. It worked for me.


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Marknis
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07 Jan 2018, 6:25 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
If you get a good job the girls will like you. It worked for me.


People think my job (library circulation technician) is a good job but there are no girls who want to date me. All the younger girls are already in relationships and the rest are these bitter older married or divorced women.

To be honest, your posts do not help me at all. I don't even know if you are on my side or if you just want to put false hope in my head and laugh at me behind my back.



hale_bopp
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07 Jan 2018, 7:04 pm

Do you have a lit of friends?



Marknis
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07 Jan 2018, 7:12 pm

hale_bopp wrote:
Do you have a lit of friends?


No. The few friendships I had in my developmental years ended and so did the ones I had in high school when I graduated. I had some new ones in the support group my mother and a social worker helped form but even those friendships fell apart. The only adult friend I made with my own ability turned out to be a user and cut me off when she moved away because she couldn't exploit me anymore.



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07 Jan 2018, 7:15 pm

Marknis wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
Do you have a lit of friends?


No. The few friendships I had in my developmental years ended and so did the ones I had in high school when I graduated. I had some new ones in the support group my mother and a social worker helped form but even those friendships fell apart. The only adult friend I made with my own ability turned out to be a user and cut me off when she moved away because she couldn't exploit me anymore.


Meet more people. Very few people are interested in desperate guys with no friends.

Desperation is like a woman repellent. Meet some people, hang out with them, get some hobbies you enjoy, take up new hobbies, just be interesting.



Marknis
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07 Jan 2018, 7:19 pm

hale_bopp wrote:
Marknis wrote:
hale_bopp wrote:
Do you have a lit of friends?


No. The few friendships I had in my developmental years ended and so did the ones I had in high school when I graduated. I had some new ones in the support group my mother and a social worker helped form but even those friendships fell apart. The only adult friend I made with my own ability turned out to be a user and cut me off when she moved away because she couldn't exploit me anymore.


Meet more people. Very few people are interested in desperate guys with no friends.

Desperation is like a woman repellent. Meet some people, hang out with them, get some hobbies you enjoy, take up new hobbies, just be interesting.


I can't really do that in my area. I don't smoke until my nostrils burn, I don't drink until I pass out, and I about football or guns. Most of the males in my area only care about these things. Even a lot of the women do the same things.



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07 Jan 2018, 7:22 pm

Enjoy being alone then. I’d move if the place I lived was that awful.



Marknis
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07 Jan 2018, 7:25 pm

I'd rather die than continue to live being alone. I don't want the ones who terrorized me to ever celebrate.



DW_a_mom
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07 Jan 2018, 9:05 pm

Marknis wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Marknis wrote:
It's a daily struggle to keep from snapping. I don't know how much longer it can last. I'll be 30 this year and if I don't have a girlfriend by then, I don't want to live anymore.


Marknis, it breaks my heart to see you like this. I wish I could do more. But first, I have to remind you, despite knowing you don't want to hear it:

You can't tie your ability to be happy to another person. You've surely heard this a million times. I went through all that at your age and I can tell you that it is the goal itself that is destroying you. You HAVE to be happy with and for yourself. There is no way around it, either in a relationship or alone. My husband and I were both 36 when we got married, and both of us had spent a lot of years wondering if it would ever be in the cards for us. The problem was that we both still had things we needed to learn and do as single individuals, even though we would have denied it at the time (it is something a person can only see after they've finally learned and done those things). I could not have been the partner I am to my husband if I had married him 5 years earlier than I did; it's the simple truth. We weren't ready for each other, and the relationship would have failed.

This is NOT me telling you that you are not worthy of love. You ARE worthy. But to get to D you need to go through A, B and C. What I want you to believe is that D IS out there for you when the time is right, and that your happiness right now depends on you navigating A, B and C, NOT waiting for D. One of those steps certainly is either moving from where you are, or finding enough of "your people" there to build a life within your own bubble. Moving seems like the more likely answer to me from what I've read, but that will be for you to choose.

I want you to envision a day where you could be happy without a girlfriend. Just one day. What would you be doing? Where would you be?


I would either be finally composing music or finally doing actually good drawings. I would be in Austin or atleast out of my mother's home.


My advice is to commit to your composing, and maybe add an art class to help you get to the level you would like to be at. Not only is the music something that will help your soul breath and feel centered, but the idea of a guy who can create music is incredibly romantic to women. Develop and nurture these interests and you may just get where you need to be.

Music isn't my forte so I can't help you navigate the path, but I do know that following your passion and talent is a winning proposition. You've got the "day" job, and that should keep the bills paid, so your free time can be poured into your art without worrying about the commercial side.

Once your art has helped you reach a better place in your head, start thinking about how to move to Austin.

This is what I would suggest, anyway. It strikes me as a path that can eventually lead you to many of the things you want.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


DW_a_mom
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07 Jan 2018, 9:11 pm

Marknis wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
If you get a good job the girls will like you. It worked for me.


People think my job (library circulation technician) is a good job but there are no girls who want to date me. All the younger girls are already in relationships and the rest are these bitter older married or divorced women.

To be honest, your posts do not help me at all. I don't even know if you are on my side or if you just want to put false hope in my head and laugh at me behind my back.


I don't think there are long time members here who would ever want to laugh behind someone's back. I'm not sure if I recall correctly because I've been on here intermittently for so many years, but I think RetroGamer87 may ounce have been in a similar position to you. None of us are ever going to manage to find the right things to say every time to everyone. Since all we can do is try, sometimes simply reminding us of the important data we're missing, or gently letting us know that we're far off the mark or even hurtful, is useful.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).