Bigotry against involuntarily celibate men

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Apologies for the delayed response.

I understand that these attacks are very real and very upsetting, like all the acts of violence which are happening all over the world. It is tragic, sad, and inexcusable. And I am sorry that you and others have gone through this. I do not in any way advocate, support, or identify with violence or its perpetrators.

This confusion many have between an extreme fringe and the larger population of lonely men is exactly what this thread is meant to respond to. You speak of this Internet sub-culture as if its representative of all involuntarily celibate men when it is only a fringe minority. I understand that you are upset, but associating me and others like me with Minassian is exactly the kind of thinking I created this thread to address.

There have been thousands of psychos who went on killing sprees across the US alone in the past 30+ years, citing nearly as many motivations pertaining to all manners of racial, religious, political, and socio-economic agendas. James Holmes' motivation for shooting up a movie theatre in Aurora, CO was nothing more than wanting to imitate a character from a movie. And if you look, you'll find insular communities in dark corners of the Internet hailing each of them as their heroes as well. And out of all this, I am only aware of at most five cases in which the motivation cited was involuntary celibacy.

Minassian did not murder 10 people because he was involuntarily celibate; he did what he did because he was a sociopath. Even if he had women throwing themselves at him, he would have found some other imagined slight to go on a rampage over.

I agree that this matter is not simply a philosophical debate for many. Every time a co-worker asks me a normal everyday question like "are you married?" or "do you have kids?", I find myself dreading being labeled as the next Elliot Rodgers waiting to happen. This has often affected my standing at jobs and within social circles. I suffer from anxiety and major depression and often think about suicide. And I know I am not the only person affected in this way.

I do believe that you never heard of Incels before Minassian. When I was younger, I knew an older man who often felt misunderstood and alone. He never hurt anyone in his life. Then one day he drove out to his family's farm and hung himself. And incidentally, when his decaying body was discovered days later, it was just as filled with blood and guts as Minassian's victims. But you never heard of his story. There was no media sensationalism. Nobody cared. We are often ignored and unacknowledged by society at large. It is only when someone like Minassian or Rodgers commits an atrocity that anyone bothers to recognize we exist. And then we are collectively condemned for what one or two people did.

I do understand that you are upset. But it is unfair to direct your outrage at me simply because I'm chronically single. I am not in any way affiliated with Alek Minassian or responsible for his actions, and I'd greatly appreciate it if you would stop conflating me with him.

Elliot Rodger, that guy had fashion, he had style and he was intelligent and he was a decent looking guy. In death he has a movement of lonely, troubled men that worship him as their leader. There are plenty off resources to help women but there are no resources to help troubled men. Incels are troubled men that have fallen through cracks of society and they are angry and frustrated.

As said in Vicarious by Tool, nobody gives a f**k unless it is a juicy story. A lonely man hanging himself is not a juicy story, therefore it will not sell newspapers or garner viewers. A man going around massacring people because he can't get his dick wet, on the other hand, will definitely generate interest amongst people and therefore generate sales/viewers. Both the general public and the media are equally to blame. I guess if someone really wanted to get themselves on the news by committing suicide, they could do something like blowing their head off with a shotgun in public or set themselves on fire in public or whatever, something that would pique the public's interest and therefore be a story the media would want to cover. Not that I'm saying anyone should ever commit suicide like, but there are ways to get yourself noticed, you just do sensationalise whatever it is and bam 9 times out of 10 you'll end up in the news.

I think if you don't want feminazis lumping you into the same category as Alek Minassian (because they will, they're feminazis), you shouldn't be posting this on a public forum where any old f****r can see it. Have a private discussion about it amongst like-minded individuals instead. But yeah, you shouldn't generalise people just because a few from that same group committed atrocities. Don't see people calling all Austrians Jew murdering incest rapist fascists just cos of Hitler and Fritzl, do ya?

This is exactly the kind of thinking I started the thread to address. Thank you for demonstrating my point.

To assume that any of the above qualities are attributes of all involuntary celibates is baseless.

Please explain how being involuntarily celibate automatically makes one a misogynist or chauvinist.

Global News: So-called ‘incels’ celebrate Toronto van attack, praise alleged driver Alek Minassian

^That's what you're associating yourself with when you call yourself an "incel", when you take that label on yourself as opposed to just calling yourself single/lonely/a virgin/however many other ways there are to describe the situation of not having a romantic partner. You can't prevent that this is the sort of association people have in their minds when they hear the term "incel", because that's already happened. The van attack and shootings like last Friday have already done that, the association has become negative for most people now because of the violence that guys identifying as incels have committed. If the association bothers you that much--well, maybe you need to rethink how you're identifying yourself, and what you are identifying with.

I agree with some of what you are saying, such as incels who don't want to be grouped with the evil incel community could easily call themselves something else and then poof the incessant hatred is gone. But it doesn't apply to other groups. For example, should Muslims renounce their faith because of the bigots that label them all as terrorists/rapists/women beaters/peadophiles etc?

You really can't compare incel ideology to an established religion like Islam. That would be like comparing David Koresh's cult and Christianity. Most people don't think Muslim people are terrorists (at least, people are not that racist and Islamophobic where I live, maybe it's different where you are) so I don't so how you can make a comparison.

What do you think we can do to help them become less angry and frustrated and avoiding that?

Which type of resources?

Incels should not be forced to contribute towards society. Most of us incels have intellectual, physical and mental defects that make us unable to contribute society. Being an incel should be classified as a disability. True incels will not accept second hand women that have been with Chads. Incels are actually voluntary involuntary celibates, because incels choose to be involuntary celibates because no woman is good enough. Being involuntary celibates ensures incels remain angry and frustrated men.

Which ones?

The bigotry and ignorance against us incels must end! I am an incel and when I go outside I feel like I am in a video game that I can not control. I feel safer at home in front of my laptop, watching my TV and playing my video games. I am an incel for life! Being an incel is my identity. It is the few bad incels that give the majority of us good incels a bad name.

The problem is that many apsies (and non aspies) want a partner for sex and company but sadly are unable to attract a partner. The big thing which divides decent people like me from the likes of Elliot Rodger (disgusting person) and the man who shot up a women's gym in the USA (George Sodini) is quite simple to understand.

While the likes of Sodini and Rodger thought that women owed them sex and got angry about the fact that they could not get their way, in the years before I met the woman who became my girlfriend / wife / mother of my child I looked for socially acceptable and legal methods of entertaining myself. I used to read several books a week and do other things to pass the time. I never developed a hatred of women, neither against the ones who said "no" when I asked them out or against women as a group.

My wife and me have discussed the likes of Sodini, she holds the view that his nasty attitude is likely to be the reason he never had much luck with women. She thinks that women soon saw through whatever mask he had and they smelled danger and stayed well away from him.

I also hold the view that shooting women is a illogical and evil response to the fact that you can not find a woman for sex / compainionship. Most mass shooters tend to kill themselves during their rampage or seek to get killed (for instance suicide by cop), I reason that if you kill yourself it will prevent you having any further experiences in this mortal world (sexual or otherwise). Also if my some chance the likes of Sodini were to survive the outrage then they will be very likely to end up in a prison where their access to women will be even more limited. Also there is a good chance that they will suffer a range of nasty experiences in prison which might include being killed by either the state or a outraged fellow prisoner.

If by a double chance they manage to escape with their life and avoid prison (maybe he has a fancy lawyer who can talk the legs off a donkey and make the jury think that black is white and white is black), then it is very likely that other women will have a new reason to avoid them.

Further more murder is WRONG. There is a set of reasons I do not do many bad things. Firstly I do not have the motivation to do bad things like murder, secondly I strongly suspect that if I was to do "bad things" I would have difficulty living with myself afterwards. I suspect that I would feel a horrible feeling of self-disgust and I know that I am better off not having to live with the knowledge that I did XYZ and ABC evil acts. The easy way to avoid working out how to live with the knowledge that "you did evil crap" is to not do evil crap in the first place !

I'm not American and can't say what the situation is there, but the first time I've heard the word 'incel' has been in the context of violence, killings and incel forums. In fact the only times I've heard of incels was either referring to violence and an extreme ideology or people saying not all incels are like that, it's juts a tiny minority.

Of course I've heard of male virgins, perpetually single men who are unhappy with their situation, men who can't get sex and lonely men before, but before those killings happened I've never heard any of them being called or calling themselves incels. I suppose, the term might have been around a bit before those killings and incel forums promoting violence, but as far as I know (I may be wrong, English isn't my mother tongue) it wasn't known to the public before it was associated with violence.

I agree that the issues of male virgins and lonely men are not talked about often and tend to be ignored. There's nothing wrong with you wanting more awareness for them. I do not see how using the term 'incel' to refer to them is helping your cause though.
It's not always easy to tell on the internet, but most people I've seen talk about the violence of incels actually seemed to mean an extremist subgroup of men who can't get sex, not all men who can't get sex.

Trying to link all incels with incel terrorist attacks is like trying to link all Muslims with Muslim terrorist attacks. The media pushes false claims and lies to demonise minority groups.

being proud beats the burlap outta bein' ashamed.