Could you be loved?

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I know there is a big difference I was asking your opinion on both, not clasifying them together.

What I meant by "decent person" wasn't their production and accomplishments, I meant who they are on the inside. I know plenty of people my age that are college graduates, have good jobs, etc., but are horrible people.

how do you think parents of 'horrible' people should feel? Should a good parent be proud and love a horrible child or should they be ashamed or something else?

I'd feel disappointed and ashamed, especially if the son or daughter wasn't doing anything to try to be a better person or had no intention of being a better person. It would mean that I didn't do my job as a parent.

That's how people act when they've just fallen in love. A parent bragging about how their baby can now sit up himself is exactly the same as somebody going on and on about the awesomeness of their new bf or gf. It's a similar feeling. (I'm a parent and remember the feeling.) Parents are no more able to wait until they are done raising the child before bragging than a couple can wait until their 20th wedding anniversary to tell others they have found a soulmate.

There's an old adage about sows ears and silk purses that applies here. All things being equal, you could tell the good parents and the bad ones apart simply by looking at their children. But all things are not equal. Some children are born with a variety of conditions - something we should all relate to! - and will never be "good" children in the same way as the norms. A good parent in such an instance will be marked by their efforts to make the best of what they have.

I am immensely proud of my mother. She struggled with me - for the first thirteen years of my life she went through divorce and destitution and had a son that was clearly intelligent but also clearly *different*. She was practically in tears of relief when she learned my condition had a name. After that, she fought for me - made sure I was funded through a good school, got whatever grants and benefits she could, did everything in her power to make things as best they could. I would not be where I am now without all that. I reckon there's a good chance I'd have ended in suicide, or I'd lose control and end up in prison on an assault charge.

I'd say that qualifies as good parenting.

I quite agree. "I made a person!" Big deal. Did you notice how many other new people were in the same ward of the hospital? There'll be a new batch there every day. If you want to impress me, give birth to a tiger.

Incidentally, what's this obsession women have with the baby's weight? Is this some equivalent of penis envy? ("How much did he weigh?" "Eight pounds!" "Pah, that's nothing. Mine was ten pounds and I was on my feet again in half an hour! You're such a lightweight!"). The only reason I can fathom is to work out the cooking time (20 mins + 20 mins per pound).

That is a wonderful analogy, and a great description of what is happening.

I am sorry that many of you find it irritating, but the act of creating life is so amazing ... I know it is incredibly common, but it also is amazing, and new parents are heady with the glow of the process, just like someone who has just fallen in love. Don't knock it; celebrate it. That feeling is what keeps the parent attending to that baby who will cry, scream, poop, suck, and completely turn upsidedown the life of the parent. Nature needs parents to feel it so they will do their job against all odds.

So, next time, think of it as natures little gloss over, the drug nature sends to the parents, and just smile with patience as the new parents run on and on.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 01 Apr 2010, 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Pride and love are different things. A parent should love any child exactly as they are, good or bad. While we have an opportunity to shape, mold and channel, we don't really make them who they are; they kind of come out of the box with a unique personality and unique potential that we don't have one heck of a lot to do with. Anyone counting on a little mini-me shouldn't have children (but, then again, the process of having a child will probably punch that illusion pretty quick, and hopefully they'll get on with the job once the pieces have been picked up).

If my kids are failures, I will look hard at my parenting for what I could have changed, but depending on the nature of the failure, odds are high that it won't be my fault. If they succeed, I'll be proud to have had the opportunity to be their parent, and to have had some influence, but that pride won't be for anything I've accomplished, because I can't lay claim to their successes, either.

When things go wrong, looking from the outside in, you just don't know whose fault it is, if there is any fault to be assigned at all. So many things in life just "are."

I feel blessed to have my two little wonderful children, and I feel a ton of hope for their futures. As well as a ton of worry, lol - but I can only do what I can do, and I certainly work hard every day to help them realize their better selves, instead of their worse selves. But I do not feel like I make them who they are; so many many many things go into that.

I agree, I dont feel that I make my children who they are, they are very much their own persons.

I get very tired of people saying Im a bad parent because they have certain challengeing behaviours, and I dont think anyone else would be able to make them behave differently.

I think if I have experienced this then probably lots of other people who we judge as bad parents because of their off springs 'outcome' probably are not bad parents at all and that the observers are makeing judgements without all the information or 'walking in their shoes'.

I think most people do the best with what they know and people can not be expected to do better than that.

@Brianruns10, you do sound like you've accomplished quite a bit - probably work I'd be interested in seeing. I guess I don't understand where the vitriol is coming from? As a parent, I can tell you that having children is a remarkable experience - raising my daughter is, without a doubt, the most important work I'll ever do. That's coming from someone who's accomplished quite a bit professionally, too. But let me point out that's also my opinion. I don't judge people who choose to remain childless. One of my best friends has made that choice, and I completely support her. I don't think her life is somehow worth less than mine because she doesn't want/have kids - but I do think my life would be worth less without my daughter.

I will disagree with you that raising a good person isn't the "end all and be all to contribute to society." While there can be other, equally important ways to substantially contribute to society, raising a good person is right up there. Imagine a world without bullies, hate, discrimination, etc. That's what good parents contribute to when they put in the monumental effort required to raise a child to become a good person. More good people in the world make the world a better place, and that means something.

@Thom_Fuleri, women often compare the birth weight of children because of the difference weight makes in the birth process. It's typically less damaging/painful to give birth to a lower weight child (although giving birth is not a walk in the summer rain, no matter how much the child weighs).

@Lotusblossom, I agree that most people do the best with what they know in every aspect of their lives (not just parenting). However, IMO if there's something in your life that's not working, it's incumbent on each person to do what they can to learn more - in order to make things better.

I really haven't read much of the rest of this but this is a hysterical post.

I think the weigh thing has to do with who passed the biggest bundle through that very small opening.

Ah! Then I have succeeded!
I long ago accepted that it is virtually useless to try and change people's minds by debate. Instead, I try to entertain.