Consequences in "why to ask first"

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Uh, is anyone here actually arguing that one is "better" than the other, or that avoiding the predatory type somehow puts you at greater risk to the acquaintance type? Also, you seem to be implying that no one is ever raped by a stranger, since otherwise advice on how to avoid that would in fact be useful- unless of course you're more interested in scoring some sort of point than in actually preventing rape and all.



Uh, didn't you just say that stranger rape happens so infrequently that advice on preventing it is completely useless? So your "solution" to this crime non-epidemic is a comically heavy handed and unworkable scheme that is likely illegal...

Okay, make it easier. Ordinance says you get two date-rape cases originating at your bar in some span of years, you lose your liquor license and no one who's got a license may take you on as any kind of partner for five years. And let the bar owners figure out how they're going to monitor and keep it from happening. When they protest, you shrug, and say look, you're the ones opening a venue where it happens. You're creating the environment, you figure out how to stop it. If you can't, we give someone else the license.

But you're right, this accounts for very few of the rape cases. Since people seem to be obsessed with finding ways to blame women for getting raped, though -- you know, cos we have no sense and all -- there you go, that takes care of your drunk party sluts. (Hang on and I'll dig up a Cadillac-driving welfare queen to joint them at the bar.) Then all we have to do is still pretty much all the work there was to do before.

As for the advice, let's review. The advice on how not to get raped involves:

1. Do not wear smutty t-shirts ever
2. Do not go outside alone ever
3. Do not drink ever
4. Shout fire if assaulted
5. Blow a whistle if assaulted
6. Do not ever go to or live in bad neighborhoods (so don't be poor if you don't want to get raped and don't say nobody warned you).

If someone gave you a "how to live" list that read like this, Dox, would you think it reasonable, particularly if everything on the list had already been shown to be unhelpful? I mean I recognize I'm asking this of a guy who takes large rhetorical umbrage at the idea that he should ask someone if they want to be loved up before laying a hand on her. The above's a significantly larger curtailment of freedom, but -- see what you think.

You forgot #7-- carry a weapon. A deadly one, if need be.

#8. Do not be alone with a man ever.

It's ironic that men offer all these advice but they get offended if women think all men are a potential rapist.

Again, unworkable and likely illegal, and responding to something that you admit is very rare anyways.



Who is blaming women for getting raped? Specifics please. Try not to torture what they actually said too much to try and make it fit your narrative, that's kind of obvious and insulting.



Do you ever get through a single argument without putting a blatant straw man or ad hominem in every post? I'm seriously starting to wonder at this point.

Who here is saying don't ever drink, go out alone, etc? Again, specific examples.

As to fire and blowing, I'd say open fire and blow the guy away, but that's my sense of humor for you.

Let me give you some advice; twisting people's words around and then arguing against things they haven't actually said isn't a very effective means of persuasion, and tends to make people hostile to you, and by extension, anything you happen to say, when they may have been open to a less hostile approach. It also makes you look dishonest, cause, frankly, it is dishonest, and makes even those not directly participating look askance at anything you might have to say, which again, includes things you might actually be correct on. Basically, there's no upside, unless you've somehow convinced yourself that this is how you "win" arguments and it helps your self esteem or something.



A) No one has given you such a list, see above.
B) No one has shown anything to be helpful or unhelpful, the most we've gotten has been a hand wave.
C) Again, you can't resist making personal and insulting insinuations about why I'm arguing against you based on nothing except my opposition to your arguments, which I'm really getting tired of.

This statement is about as meaningful as saying "it's ironic that innocent people offer advice to people who are at risk for being victims of other forms of crime but they get offended if victims of crime somehow conflate this with every person in existence being a criminal when in fact it's a small but significant minority". Which is to say it really isn't ironic in any sense of the word unless you deliberately distort what's being said.

"Don't be with a man alone ever" is something I 've heard from mothers to daughters.

Ps: I've edited my previous post and added the missing word.

tarantella tbh I think you're putting words in people's mouths with a shovel here.
For ex, 'don't get drunk' isn't the same of 'never drink' and no one here is denying the frequency of acquaintance rape.

And the f**k me shirt is an extreme thing since it may unecessarily attract predators' attention, plus it's humiliating and objectifying the wearer regardless whether it attracts predators or not - otherwise I wouldn't interfer in her cloth choice.

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 30 Aug 2014, 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

good people don't do take advantage of women. those who do are not good people. I'll remember to get legal forms signed in duplicate, ask for consent every minute. and videotape the whole thing. repeat every time we are alone. course now we made porn that could leak out,but meh its for legal reasons.
most of the family members did it try to hide it, this shows they know it is wrong and bad. so how do you stop that? if they know its bad and do it anyways. without some kind of mind altering drug that is manidated by the goverment I don't see any way to stop somone who is bad from doing bad things. as i bet up until they raped the person the person thought they were good, so didn't and couldn't see it coming. so if that person who knows the rapist well couldn't see it coming how am I suppose to see it coming and stop it?

I feel super super guilty for not being able to stop people I love from being raped, even though it happen when I wasn't around, didn't know them and wasn't born. there is no way to stop it. which is truely sad. even if you get the message out to all guys to ask first. this won't stop the ones who don't care and rape a friend/family member. I'd be the first to f*****g kill a rapist, but I can't not see any way of stopping it without being there to see it and act. there are people that If I got put in a room with and they talked and acted like it was nothing I would have strong urges to f*****g kill them. one is my so called biological dad.

telling someone that if they take precaustions they might avoid rape isn't victim blaming. victim blaming is my so called grandmother saying he didn't do anything kids, you just misunderstand. you must have done something to prvoke it, why don't you go hang out with your dad, why do you hate your dad, hey lets put you in room alone with him. she will never and can never admit he raped and abused my siblings, or that her husband raped and abused her kids.

I'll let my daughter go nude down a dark ally we now to be full bad people its her right to go down there right?

gasoline doesn't start fires. but it's flammable so I wouldnt walk near a fire. I wouldn't walk down a dark creepy alley way waving hundred dollar bills. if someone says you shouldn't do that cause it increases your risk of ____ happening. I don't think ah man that guy is victim blaming me and restricting my rights to do what I want. In a perfect world a lady could walk nude down a dark street, but we don't live in a perfect world.

another reason people say she should have, is the same as people who thinkg , what if I had____, or maybe if i'd just done ____
people tend to think of how could this have been avoided. but in case of the rape you talk about it is likely it could not been avoided. such a reality is often hard to come with terms with. that there was no way to prevent a horrible thing.
people say these things to people in accidents, mugged, robbered, etc.
if you'd just been going slower yo'd you wouldn't have got hit. etc. but usually the person doesn't see this as victim blaming.



cause one guy couldn't rape 10 women. oh wait that is often what happens. My dad has probably raped 7 people. so you could say 7 people were raped so there were 7 rapists. but there was really just one. a bf who rapes one gf, will likely rape the next.
often the reason for trying to get a rape victim to come forward is to stop him from raping another person.
so just cause 1/4 women are raped doesn't mean 1/4 guys is a rapist.

most the women i've known have been raped :'( I was abused and almost raped. I just figured that we abused people tend to find each other. most my guy friends were abused/raped.

recently a guy i know brother did .... to his child. I don't know which brother, but both seemed nice when I met them. my brother's friend has sexually abused his wife's kid. though this one you could figure, hes a as*hole, doesn't care to work, addicted to drugs etc.

I will not believe most guys are these guys, cause if its true then this world is so f*****g hopeless.

the one thing I do know is rape talk makes me super depressed and angry. and causes panic attacks. I can not understand rape. :'(

also in some of you guy's post you almost seem to be defending the rapist. hes not a psychopath, hes a normal good guy who feels remorse and emotions.

anyone who rapes is not normal or feels remorse. I would kill myself If I ever ended up raping someone. I would walk out and just end myself. theres not living for me after hurting another person like that. so maybe they aren't sociopaths in that they run around killing people, but they cleary didn't give one s**t for the people they hurt and that to me says "This disorder is characterized by a disregard for the feelings of others, a lack of remorse or shame, manipulative behavior, unchecked egocentricity, and the ability to lie in order to achieve one's goals. Sociopaths can be dangerous at worst or simply very difficult to deal with"

so they don't have to be on the dangerous side, they could just be low end undiagnosed, sociopaths.

Oh, right, that one. Man, the "I must at all times be a boiling cauldron of testosterone" guys came out in force after my house got robbed and I was looking for advice on an alarm system. They really have this thing about women and guns, really get off on it, and were first urging me and then insulting me to arm to teeth. Of course I have no reason to do that, and besides one of the fastest ways to end up with a dead kid is to have a gun in the house with kids, so no thanks. The "horrors that are sure to happen to you if you don't sleep behind your own arsenal" talk went beyond nuts to downright disturbed, and by the end of it they were blaming me for my own next burglary WHICH WILL NO DOUBT BE A BLOODBATH I COULD HAVE AVERTED IF ONLY MANY GUNS AND KRAV MAGA.

People who tell women to arm themselves against rapists -- well, again, they've got the fantasy of the sociopath in the alley, and don't really know much about how actual rapes go. They've also apparently never seen s**t go down between an armed woman and an assailant. I have. It's extraordinary how fast she was a disarmed woman and the guy had her weapon. Why? Because he was much bigger and faster than she was, same reason why parents have the advantage over young children. The ARM TO TEETH nobs come back with silliness about how martial arts will save the day, as if the sensible thing is for all women to become ninjas. Because, you know, we don't have enough to do, and sure, that's...helpful. I get the impression that the guys suggesting these things spend a great deal of time with video games and comics, and half-believe that the actual world works this way.

Which is really a good deal of the problem. The guys handing out the advice are imagining rape scenes. They don't know how rapes and other assaults against women actually go, and they're not going to go find out or listen to the experiences of actual women; they're content to armchair it. Seems reasonable that a gun would work! Or a whistle. Or a drab outfit. Or...And having imagined these things they decide this is advice, and hand it out, and then get annoyed when it isn't well received and the answer still keeps coming back, "Actually the problem is not with the women; the way we deal with rape and sexual approaches has to change."

Please stop straw manning me, it's tiresome. Are you or are you not less likely to get raped if you have a gun on you? Yes or no.

Sly, a lot of rapists really are just regular guys. People aren't so great, you may have noticed.

Around the time my house got robbed, there was a big spike in burglaries around here -- there was some ring operating. Chief of police responded by first doing nothing, then having the cop pr lady give interviews about how not to get robbed. I blew a gasket, wrote to the mayor and the head cop, and said what the bloody f**k is this, that's how you do your job, you leave it up to people to worry about the next break-in and then call it their fault if they're broken into? f**k that noise, we've got burglaries up severalfold and now strongarm robberies downtown, if you don't do something about this s**t I'm going to get very loud in pointing out how our mayor and chief of police don't seem to be able to handle a bunch of break-in artists, even with all that fancy cop equipment you've got.

Result: within a few months, there had been a bunch of arrests and the break-in rate went back down to about where it had been. It is actually possible to clean things up if that's really what you want to do.

eta: I never said there's a 1:1 rapist:victim ratio. But it doesn't matter. Even if the ratio's 1:10, you're still talking about millions of guys in this country alone who've raped women.

Last edited by tarantella64 on 30 Aug 2014, 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Postmaster: no, probably not. Do you understand how most rapes happen? Even if you can find people willing to holster up in their nighties or while hanging out on the couch watching TV, you're not going to find too many women willing to kill their husbands, boyfriends, friends, other family members, etc. in order to avoid rape. Which is probably smart of them. Fire that gun once to protect yourself and you can say goodbye to the next year or several years of your life.

The scenario you're thinking of involves dangerous strangers. But that isn't how rape generally happens. You're also more than a little romantic about how fast people get to weapons, and failing to take into account that there are also dangers involved in carrying guns with you all over the place. A heavily armed society is not a safer society.

Also, nobody was straw-manning you. You're being extremely literal.

Tarantella, it could be American culture, I notice much popular culture idolizes women and views them as sex objects, there's also a lot of violence and nudity on a American television.

it would be difficult if one was deaf and dumb. i would imagine the hand signals required to ask for a kiss or sex would themselves be quite lurid and offensive.