What is "creepy"?

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Okay, so what I'm getting from you here hyper is that personal opinions do not equal fact, and that they can thus be disregarded. Yet, at the same time, anyone who challenges the personal opinion of others is automatically in the wrong.

I wasn't saying you were off topic, only that I was trying to add something new to it and not dwell on the current exchange. In fact, I tried to do that earlier but it got lost in this sea of debating opinion, subjectivity, who's right to feel what, what is offensive and what isn't offensive. I have no problem with where the topic is going, I just don't think it's going anywhere :p

a person's own opinion as to what to do in their own life circumstances is most important and most relevant, and other people's opinions do not trump that. our assessments of the situation are not based on factual information because we are not actual witnesses to anyone else's life.

By that logic no action can ever be condemned as wrong.

How dare we judge a murderer. His opinion as to what to do in his own life circumstances is most relevant, and society's opinion that he was wrong does not trump that.

Sorry, but I don't buy into moral relativism.

there is no "moral relativism" involved in deciding for someone else what is best for their safety.

Therefore all women are allowed to bash men for their potential to be violent rapists and all men are allowed to bash women for their potential to be manipulative golddiggers - they're only protecting their safety...

Not smiling at on the train isn't bashing
You're free to not date or not engage in casual conversation with as many strange women as you want

There is when that person's actions involve treating others discourteously, while providing only the illusion of safety without any actual added safety.

Say, for instance, that the only time I feel safe is if I'm pointing a gun at whomever I'm talking to. By your logic, you'd have no right to tell me that I was going about the whole caution thing in the wrong way. I, on the other hand, would hope that someone would tell me that what I am actually doing is making the people around me fearful for their own safety, putting them on their guard, and increasing the likelihood that something negative might happen to me.

That's obviously an extreme example, but I think it illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

One thing being overlooked here is the way perpetrators of violent acts tend to dehumanize their victims in order to justify their crimes.

Keeping that in mind, let's look at that poster's strategy for avoiding being victimised. She, whenever she encounters a man on her hiking trail, makes a point of giving him an aggressive look, and makes a point of not returning any courtesies (like saying "hi") that he may offer. Now, if the guy she encounters is just a regular guy out for a hike of his own, then she has been extremely rude to him without any benefit to herself. And if the guy she encounters is an actual sexual predator, then she has aided in dehumanizing herself, making herself look (to him) like a deserving victim.

Last edited by mds_02 on 02 Aug 2012, 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

it is. That you cant see why is sad.

Agreed. Interaction with any person is an arbitrary privilege, not a right. We all discriminate in terms of who we spend time with. People are tossing around the word "discrimination" as a loaded term here. Discrimination is bad when it happens in the public - when people of a certain type are forbidden rights, jobs, housing. But I don't think anyone has ever seriously put forward as a political idea that people have a duty to be social and spend time with others, without discrimination. It's absurd. Do they mean to say I am a bigot if I don't want to hang out with Rastafarians, lawyers, or people much younger than myself? These are all disciminations ...

whether or not you personally believe her strategy for keeping safe is the very best one, you are neither an expect on safety nor an expert on her life. you don't know her best strategies for avoiding sexual assault. there is nothing wrong with providing advice when you think you might know some good ideas, and in fact that is what this forum is built on. however, for you to pass judgement on her strategy and make an assumption that it would be somehow incorrect or detrimental is based on your own opinions from reading a one-paragraph story - not based on any actual evidence (or even full knowledge of her life situation).

that is the point here - you are not an expert, nor is any individual on this forum so objective that they could be understood to parse the situation better than any other person reading that paragraph. the fact there there is disagreement about that one single example should maybe tweak you to the fact that there are no universal standards.

your example is true - if a person feels safest addressing others in certain situations with a gun, then that's the way they roll. if they are approaching a *suspected* gang of cocaine dealers in a back alley, then it would even be logical. and to the member who told the story, THAT is how they feel. they are talking about what has proven to be a high-risk situation for them and talking about how they feel safer. not every person they meet, but individuals in that specific situation.

Pointing a gun at someone is usually a matter of legality. It doesn't invalidate your point, but I thought it was worth mentioning.



It doesn't really matter how a criminal justifies their crime, it still isn't accurate to place blame on victims. Maybe the way she dresses, the color of her eyes, etc. make her look like a "deserving victim" to someone, but she still isn't responsible for the actions of another person.

You bring up a really important issue though, people who abuse others in anyway often use irrational justifications, anything to convince their own mind that the victims of their abuse deserved the abuse. In my own experience I've had two men assault me, one very clearly expressing his view that I owed him sex(despite barely knowing him) because he'd been so "kind" to me and I was a "stuck up b*tch", and luckily in both cases I avoided anything further than a brief physical confrontation.

Neither of these guys expressed any sort of remorse and from what I gather they both felt entitled to what they sought to take from me. I was vaguely friendly with both(I didn't want to be rude) and these aren't the only situations in which I've experienced unfamiliar men mistreating me or even a friend.

So what am I to do? I'm uncomfortable with unfamiliar men because while I know women can be predators, I've only experienced men behaving as predators. I try to be courteous but when I'm alone in an isolated area I feel less threatened by other women(and I'm 5'9''ish and most women I encounter aren't as tall as me so maybe that has something to do with it) as my first response to her, whereas I will feel tense if I encounter a male. I might nod and I might be comfortable giving directions but I'd probably try to keep a safe distance and I might feel panicked if they get super close to my face or touch my arm etc.

It's not something I think about as it happens but I don't shout that someone is a creep, even if I do avoid someone. I think it's understandable for women who've been assaulted in the past to be overly cautious. Once I became aware of just how vulnerable I am, despite knowing that the risk is low, I became very cautious at almost all times when I'm alone.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but is that supposed to be more important than my safety?

^^^
I suspect your height does have quite a bit to do with it. It changes the dynamic substantially enough because statistically there are going to be a small number of women who are going to be taller than you.

From my experience, random women I don't know are more likely to try to assault me physically.
Being 5'0ft, they are always taller than me. So because of that, I'm more likely to judge in terms of context, rather than gender specifically.

The irrational justifications was exactly mds_02's point. You would be amazed what justifications such people can come up with.
The combination of dehumanization, ojectification and entitlement is how they jusitify it to themselves - actions that you did or did not do can be twisted in any way they like to suit their reasoning.

Last edited by Kjas on 03 Aug 2012, 2:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

It isnt.

Lets be clear there are plenty of people that refuse to do this for their own reasons(I even read a newspapers article where the journalist said that he was sad that more and more people of both genders were stopping this behaviour that used to be normal and overly cautious when someone did this to them).
Why are people stopping this behaviour?
Quite simply the world isnt butterflies and flowers and a lot of the people that approach you in an overly friendly manner for no reason want something from you(money/help doing something/they are advertising a product...)

That said when someone approaches you on an open space(not a train/closed area) you should at least let them know that they are wasting their time because you arent interested merely out of courtesy and then move on with your life. If said person that approached you doenst take that for an answer then it can be labelled as a creep and treated as such(approach any stranger you can find for help...), until then its merely someone that was interested in talking to you(whatever happened to innocent until proven otherwise people?)

Many people think I'm creepy; I don't see myself as a creep, so what should I tell people?

Creepy can be more than perverted. I think unnecessary compliments are creepy. Especially ones that are on daily basis. Is that just me or do others think so as well? When male who isn't in my age group give my compliments, I don't take it as them being a perv, I take is as annoying.

If i get constant attention and compliments form guys who are 18-21(my age group)I feel flattered. When I get compliments from guys over that age limit, I feel annoyed and creeped out.

Even if somebody is just being nice, it freaks me out. I don't feel harassed, but like I feel like I'm getting too much attention.