Blog post on the epidemic of forced celibacy in males
04 Oct 2010, 10:20 pm
HopeGrows wrote:
Thanks, Toad....how about expanding your comfort zone?
Where else could I go? It took me years to feel comfortable in my church, and without my mother's influence, it wouldn't have ever happened at all...
HopeGrows wrote:
Well, there's a difference between trust and unconditional love. Trust can certainly exist within a relationship, as long as both partners are willing to do the work: being honest, being committed to open communication, respecting each other, etc. But most people seem to confuse "unconditional love" with the expectation that every behavior will be accepted, and accepted on a permanent basis. It's this idea that, "If you really loved me, you'd take all the BS I can dish out." Nope. If you really love someone, you don't dish out the BS. Partners have to work at maintaining their relationship on an on-going basis, because people change and grow on an on-going basis. It takes work to grow together - and that work is the foundation of the trust you're referring to.
Well I'm sure willing to put the work in for my part. But it still wasn't enough to save my last relationship... :/
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04 Oct 2010, 11:10 pm
ToadOfSteel wrote:
HopeGrows wrote:
Thanks, Toad....how about expanding your comfort zone?
Where else could I go? It took me years to feel comfortable in my church, and without my mother's influence, it wouldn't have ever happened at all...
A place in which you're interested, where there are people in your age range (including people who may share your basic values/interests).
HopeGrows wrote:
Well, there's a difference between trust and unconditional love. Trust can certainly exist within a relationship, as long as both partners are willing to do the work: being honest, being committed to open communication, respecting each other, etc. But most people seem to confuse "unconditional love" with the expectation that every behavior will be accepted, and accepted on a permanent basis. It's this idea that, "If you really loved me, you'd take all the BS I can dish out." Nope. If you really love someone, you don't dish out the BS. Partners have to work at maintaining their relationship on an on-going basis, because people change and grow on an on-going basis. It takes work to grow together - and that work is the foundation of the trust you're referring to.
ToadOfSteel wrote:
Well I'm sure willing to put the work in for my part. But it still wasn't enough to save my last relationship... :/
Both people have to be willing to do the work, Toad. One person making all the effort doesn't results in a very one-sided relationship. Not good for LTRs.
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05 Oct 2010, 12:17 am
hyperlexian wrote:
ummmm, the shooter 'scapegoated' a bunch of people in a gym...
it really has nothing at all to do with the women.
it really has nothing at all to do with the women.
your last point was the point i was making in the first place. everybody needs to scapegoat about something. it is far easier on this plane of existence, to destroy rather than to create- or to create something evil rather than to create something life-affirming. negativity and humans go together like maple trees and sap.
mr. sodoni did what he did, and no amount of cursing at him in the grave is going to undo what he did. the damage is done, and more hating isn't going to make it better. why aren't we all about trying to fix whatever it is about our modern society that produces these angst-ridden dysfunctional people? and to those who say he should have just jerked up his own bootstraps and fixed himself post-haste, i have to clumsily mix some metaphors here and say, "if i can't fix my own computer, what makes you think i can fix something so much more complicated and impenetrable as my own psyche?"
only god is in any real moral position to be calling down fire on humans...
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05 Oct 2010, 12:42 am
HopeGrows wrote:
@Auntblabby, I’m kinda surprised at you. George Sodini is a scapegoat who “snapped?” That sentiment really does a disservice to all the people out there (men, women, Aspie, NT) who work hard to form relationships – and who don’t victimize innocent people if those relationships don’t work.
the point i was making, is that he did what he did and no amount of cursing his spirit in outer darkness is going to fix anything. that is not dismissing the enormity of his offense against god and man. i was not defending the man but instead questioning how it is not just kicking a dead horse to keep castigating his purgatory-residing spirit, rather than turn around and try to find out what about our modern society creates these angst-ridden dysfunctional people, so as to try to stop the slaughter at its roots. our culture just likes to pick at the surface weeds without getting at the roots, so of course the weeds keep coming back. nobody is even remotely curious as to why we are the world's leading jailer. there is a serious disconnect here. hate is just an expedient that in battle merely interrupts problems and doesn't solve them. hate is literally good for nothing. hate just corrodes anything in its grasp. mr. sodoni is only the latest example.
HopeGrows wrote:
I think I do understand what led to George Sodini’s rage (although I don’t understand the mental illness that made mass murder seem a reasonable option to him). IMO, if George Sodini had read this post and taken it to heart, his life would have had a very different outcome. I hope that someone reading this post will take it to heart, and stop beating his/her own head against the same brick wall.
there are none so blind as those who will not see. some people can learn, some people can't learn, and no amount of breastbeating will change that. george sodoni was on the dark side of the moon in this regard. he is in his own sealed echo chamber of his own hate now, a truly hellish purgatory that is where he needs to be now. no amount of mere mortal hatred for the man will ever equal such a cosmic correction.
05 Oct 2010, 12:51 am
HopeGrows wrote:
A place in which you're interested, where there are people in your age range (including people who may share your basic values/interests).
But how do I find such a place? It seems to me like there isn't much going on for my age range in my general area, and it's mostly centered around partying, which is not something im interested in...HopeGrows wrote:
Both people have to be willing to do the work, Toad. One person making all the effort doesn't results in a very one-sided relationship. Not good for LTRs.
Well unless I can somehow prove the above false and work for two, I guess i'm screwed... i don't know anybody that would be willing to put in the effort for someone like me... :/
05 Oct 2010, 5:49 am
hyperlexian wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
nostromo wrote:
I have many thoughts on this subject. I do feel sorry for the shooter, someone needed to give him some support, he was isolated and bewildered over a long period of time.
What disappoints me most is the reaction, the shooter is just vilified as a loner and madman because thats the easy option to avoid having to understand, nothing is learnt and things continue on the same.
What disappoints me most is the reaction, the shooter is just vilified as a loner and madman because thats the easy option to avoid having to understand, nothing is learnt and things continue on the same.
few people are really interested in "understanding." the multitudes seem to have a perennial need to hate, to scapegoat somebody, anybody, for just about any reason at all, and if the scapegoat snaps and does something beyond the pale, even more convenient for the haters to spew even more hatred.
_____________________________________________________________________________
just my 2-cents' worth, adjusted for inflation
ummmm, the shooter 'scapegoated' a bunch of people in a gym...
i think that man is an interesting specimen in terms of studying his mental illness ONLY. i think trying to find 'reasons' puts the blame back onto the women who rejected him and found him unworthy.. and the rejected him for good reason, in retrospect...
he was evidently capable of psychotic behaviour. that monster would have found victims one way or the other, because the problem was internal, not external... it was just a matter of what incident would set him off. were he a slightly different man it could have been rejection from employers or from his parents that precipitated the psychotic break.
it really has nothing at all to do with the women.
Yes it had nothing to do with women really, thats just a symptom, I agree.
But to tackle your points - nothing I read suggested he was even close to Psychotic, but rather was logical. Does that not worry you more? Craziness we can actually understand; the crazy person does not really know what they are doing, but this guy - like other Postal shooters appeared rational and was doing something at the end towards a purpose, however wrong it seems to us. Your use of the dismissive words 'Psychotic' and 'monster' seeks to compartmentalise him (tidily filed away so to speak) to the category 'nasty things which do not need to be understood'.
Personally I reckon he just wasn't equipped to deal with a lot of life on a number of levels; and like a child does, probably needed somebody/someone (another male in this case I guess) to extend the hand of friendship to help get him back on the level, tell him where he was being a dick, what he was doing wrong, to paraphrase the guy.."There is something BLATANTLY wrong with me that NO goddam person will tell me what it is.". Have a beer with him, talk about s**t. Look out for him..extensively.
I've got a friend like this in some ways, he's a worry, the last girlfriend he had, well it ended up with one of those court orders where he can't come within 300 meters of the lady, he was extremely emotional; suicidal, consumed with rage and becoming quite scary, he went fully misogynist, even went before the female family court judge to appeal the court order and accused her of collusion.
Now in fact everything was all his fault, it was the classic jealous/paranoia/fear/control freak thing, and she was none to blame I think, but he just couldn't seem to do anything else, he was in the grip of and tortured by emotions he just couldn't seem to deal with.
It's easy to be judgemental, but it wouldn't have achieved anything would it? Some people respond to criticism positively but emotional people get driven further away, so I just listened to him mainly and tried to present the other point of view when I could (its hard to interrupt angry monologues) as the truth just wasn't acceptable, and I put up with endless phone calls. Anyway after a few long years of thinking and talking about her nearly every waking minute he eventually got over her. I'm still friends with this reject from society, and like him for all his faults.
The bible says we are our brothers keeper, it's a good rule, it's actually self-interest in a round-about way don't you think?
05 Oct 2010, 7:07 am
auntblabby wrote:
[the point i was making, is that he did what he did and no amount of cursing his spirit in outer darkness is going to fix anything. that is not dismissing the enormity of his offense against god and man. i was not defending the man but instead questioning how it is not just kicking a dead horse to keep castigating his purgatory-residing spirit, rather than turn around and try to find out what about our modern society creates these angst-ridden dysfunctional people, so as to try to stop the slaughter at its roots. our culture just likes to pick at the surface weeds without getting at the roots, so of course the weeds keep coming back. nobody is even remotely curious as to why we are the world's leading jailer. there is a serious disconnect here. hate is just an expedient that in battle merely interrupts problems and doesn't solve them. hate is literally good for nothing. hate just corrodes anything in its grasp. mr. sodoni is only the latest example.
[.
[.
bolding by me
I wish we could do that without causing extensive damage to everything we hold dear. But I seriously doubt that this is possible. Doing this involves two things.
1)First Thing: We have to correctly figure out what it is about our society that is creating these angst-ridden dysfunctional people. Since the problem could be organic or familial, we then have to figure out what about society allows organic or familial problems of this extent to happen.
2)Now comes the really hard part. We would need to change society so that these things can't happen. And that's the catch. It's a catch that has been addressed quiite well by science fiction writers who tackle the utopia/dystopia problem. George Orwell's Brave New World invented the genre and still sets the standard. Basically, it is highly likely that we will discover that freedom is incompatible with perfection. That's what every writer (starting with Orwell) who has tackled the problem has decided. And I think they've made a good case. In order to make sure that nobody ever goes off the rails ever for any reason, freedom of pretty much any type must be removed.
05 Oct 2010, 8:27 am
nostromo wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
nostromo wrote:
I have many thoughts on this subject. I do feel sorry for the shooter, someone needed to give him some support, he was isolated and bewildered over a long period of time.
What disappoints me most is the reaction, the shooter is just vilified as a loner and madman because thats the easy option to avoid having to understand, nothing is learnt and things continue on the same.
What disappoints me most is the reaction, the shooter is just vilified as a loner and madman because thats the easy option to avoid having to understand, nothing is learnt and things continue on the same.
few people are really interested in "understanding." the multitudes seem to have a perennial need to hate, to scapegoat somebody, anybody, for just about any reason at all, and if the scapegoat snaps and does something beyond the pale, even more convenient for the haters to spew even more hatred.
_____________________________________________________________________________
just my 2-cents' worth, adjusted for inflation
ummmm, the shooter 'scapegoated' a bunch of people in a gym...
i think that man is an interesting specimen in terms of studying his mental illness ONLY. i think trying to find 'reasons' puts the blame back onto the women who rejected him and found him unworthy.. and the rejected him for good reason, in retrospect...
he was evidently capable of psychotic behaviour. that monster would have found victims one way or the other, because the problem was internal, not external... it was just a matter of what incident would set him off. were he a slightly different man it could have been rejection from employers or from his parents that precipitated the psychotic break.
it really has nothing at all to do with the women.
Yes it had nothing to do with women really, thats just a symptom, I agree.
But to tackle your points - nothing I read suggested he was even close to Psychotic, but rather was logical. Does that not worry you more? Craziness we can actually understand; the crazy person does not really know what they are doing, but this guy - like other Postal shooters appeared rational and was doing something at the end towards a purpose, however wrong it seems to us. Your use of the dismissive words 'Psychotic' and 'monster' seeks to compartmentalise him (tidily filed away so to speak) to the category 'nasty things which do not need to be understood'.
Personally I reckon he just wasn't equipped to deal with a lot of life on a number of levels; and like a child does, probably needed somebody/someone (another male in this case I guess) to extend the hand of friendship to help get him back on the level, tell him where he was being a dick, what he was doing wrong, to paraphrase the guy.."There is something BLATANTLY wrong with me that NO goddam person will tell me what it is.". Have a beer with him, talk about sh**. Look out for him..extensively.
I've got a friend like this in some ways, he's a worry, the last girlfriend he had, well it ended up with one of those court orders where he can't come within 300 meters of the lady, he was extremely emotional; suicidal, consumed with rage and becoming quite scary, he went fully misogynist, even went before the female family court judge to appeal the court order and accused her of collusion.
Now in fact everything was all his fault, it was the classic jealous/paranoia/fear/control freak thing, and she was none to blame I think, but he just couldn't seem to do anything else, he was in the grip of and tortured by emotions he just couldn't seem to deal with.
It's easy to be judgemental, but it wouldn't have achieved anything would it? Some people respond to criticism positively but emotional people get driven further away, so I just listened to him mainly and tried to present the other point of view when I could (its hard to interrupt angry monologues) as the truth just wasn't acceptable, and I put up with endless phone calls. Anyway after a few long years of thinking and talking about her nearly every waking minute he eventually got over her. I'm still friends with this reject from society, and like him for all his faults.
The bible says we are our brothers keeper, it's a good rule, it's actually self-interest in a round-about way don't you think?
i believe the shooter was on a psychotic break. psychotic people don't always seem disorganized, but are often cold, calculating and logical in their actions. here is concise description of a psychotic episode, of which i bolded the important parts:
Quote:
People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and thought disorder. Depending on its severity, this may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behavior, as well as difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the daily life activities.(from Wikipedia: Psychosis)
i call him a monster because to me, he was a monster. anybody who shoots up a room of innocent people is a monster
i didn't say that he isn't worth studying. i'm certain his behaviour will be dissected by many agencies and universities and psychiatrists. and they will likely uncover some interesting things about the monster's inner and outer life.
i emphasize that he is a monster to me because i believe that this thread, and some subsequent posts seek to humanize the offender... and i think that is a mistake. i believe most people are redeemable, but sociopaths are an exception (the shooter's behaviour points to sociopathy), as they are largely resistant to treatment. also worthy of note is that sociopaths have existed throughout written history; this is nothing new:
Quote:
From recorded observations, we do know that sociopaths, by various names, have existed in all kinds of societies, worldwide and throughout history.(from The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless Versus the Rest of Us by Matha Stout)
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HopeGrows
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05 Oct 2010, 7:14 pm
Again, @Auntblabby, I’m kinda surprised at you. You seem to have disregarded the main portion of my post, which was not about the castigation and condemnation of George Sodini. Instead, it was about making concrete suggestions to try to help people avoid leading the same kind of miserable, isolated life that Sodini led.
I’m sorry, I don’t think there’s any great mystery about how our society makes these “angst-ridden dysfunctional people.” Its abuse and neglect. Abuse and neglect of children creates angry, dysfunctional, depressed, anxious, abnormal, psychologically troubled adults. Bullying of children by peers and siblings does the same. There’s nothing groundbreaking here.
George Sodini could have had an organic brain disorder or mental illness or any number of diagnosable and treatable conditions that contributed to his isolation over the years. If every female who crossed his path knew there was something wrong with him, surely his parents must have known there was something wrong with him. Why didn’t his parents get him help? Maybe they tried. Maybe that’s why he hated his brother so much – maybe his brother tried to get him to see a doctor. Or maybe his parents ignored his problems and maybe his brother was a bully. I don’t know.
What I do know is that there was one person who could have made a difference in George Sodini’s life – one person who could have saved him: George Sodini. Why didn’t he help himself? Why couldn’t he bring himself to seek the advice of professional(s)? Why couldn’t he say, “I don’t seem to be able to do the things I see most people around me doing. I don’t seem to be able to form relationships, or make friends, or get a girlfriend. My life is not the life I want and I don’t seem to be able to fix it. Can you help me fix it?”
That’s the question, IMO. Why is it that people still generally shun the help of doctors, therapists, support groups – when the issue at hand is mental illness? How about when the issue is social anxiety? How about when it’s loneliness or isolation or shyness?
Is it embarrassment? Not being able to admit to being friendless? Not being able to admit to needing help in an area of life that many people seem to succeed at effortlessly? Is the facade of happiness more important than actually being happy? Why is the price paid for faking competency in these areas never too high?
While I don’t think George Sodini could have solved his problems on his own, he was the only one who had the power to ask for help. Frankly, figuring out if George Sodini’s father beat him or his mother ignored him isn’t going to prevent more George Sodinis. Figuring out why a lifetime of bitter isolation was preferable to admitting he needed help, and seeking it out – that’s an interesting question. Why did he refuse to take responsibility for finding a solution to such a massive, pervasive, debilitating problem? Because that’s the difference between people who heal and people who don’t: recognizing that the influences and conditions that created the person you are today really don’t matter; what matters is having the courage to do what it takes to fix the problems you have. Or you can let being ashamed of having problems or needing help limit your options, and limit your happiness and fulfillment in life. You can even keep blaming your parents, siblings, teacher, God, your disability, your disease, your birth order, whatever for your unhappiness. I’m sure all those factors have probably legitimately done their share of damage. The problem is that blame – even legitimate, well-placed, well-deserved blame - doesn’t do a goddamned thing to repair the damage. The power to heal is in each of us. The only real question is whether we use that power or not.
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05 Oct 2010, 8:21 pm
HopeGrows wrote:
Again, @Auntblabby, I’m kinda surprised at you. You seem to have disregarded the main portion of my post, which was not about the castigation and condemnation of George Sodini. Instead, it was about making concrete suggestions to try to help people avoid leading the same kind of miserable, isolated life that Sodini led.
I’m sorry, I don’t think there’s any great mystery about how our society makes these “angst-ridden dysfunctional people.” Its abuse and neglect. Abuse and neglect of children creates angry, dysfunctional, depressed, anxious, abnormal, psychologically troubled adults. Bullying of children by peers and siblings does the same. There’s nothing groundbreaking here.
George Sodini could have had an organic brain disorder or mental illness or any number of diagnosable and treatable conditions that contributed to his isolation over the years. If every female who crossed his path knew there was something wrong with him, surely his parents must have known there was something wrong with him. Why didn’t his parents get him help? Maybe they tried. Maybe that’s why he hated his brother so much – maybe his brother tried to get him to see a doctor. Or maybe his parents ignored his problems and maybe his brother was a bully. I don’t know.
What I do know is that there was one person who could have made a difference in George Sodini’s life – one person who could have saved him: George Sodini. Why didn’t he help himself? Why couldn’t he bring himself to seek the advice of professional(s)? Why couldn’t he say, “I don’t seem to be able to do the things I see most people around me doing. I don’t seem to be able to form relationships, or make friends, or get a girlfriend. My life is not the life I want and I don’t seem to be able to fix it. Can you help me fix it?”
That’s the question, IMO. Why is it that people still generally shun the help of doctors, therapists, support groups – when the issue at hand is mental illness? How about when the issue is social anxiety? How about when it’s loneliness or isolation or shyness?
Is it embarrassment? Not being able to admit to being friendless? Not being able to admit to needing help in an area of life that many people seem to succeed at effortlessly? Is the facade of happiness more important than actually being happy? Why is the price paid for faking competency in these areas never too high?
While I don’t think George Sodini could have solved his problems on his own, he was the only one who had the power to ask for help. Frankly, figuring out if George Sodini’s father beat him or his mother ignored him isn’t going to prevent more George Sodinis. Figuring out why a lifetime of bitter isolation was preferable to admitting he needed help, and seeking it out – that’s an interesting question. Why did he refuse to take responsibility for finding a solution to such a massive, pervasive, debilitating problem? Because that’s the difference between people who heal and people who don’t: recognizing that the influences and conditions that created the person you are today really don’t matter; what matters is having the courage to do what it takes to fix the problems you have. Or you can let being ashamed of having problems or needing help limit your options, and limit your happiness and fulfillment in life. You can even keep blaming your parents, siblings, teacher, God, your disability, your disease, your birth order, whatever for your unhappiness. I’m sure all those factors have probably legitimately done their share of damage. The problem is that blame – even legitimate, well-placed, well-deserved blame - doesn’t do a goddamned thing to repair the damage. The power to heal is in each of us. The only real question is whether we use that power or not.
I’m sorry, I don’t think there’s any great mystery about how our society makes these “angst-ridden dysfunctional people.” Its abuse and neglect. Abuse and neglect of children creates angry, dysfunctional, depressed, anxious, abnormal, psychologically troubled adults. Bullying of children by peers and siblings does the same. There’s nothing groundbreaking here.
George Sodini could have had an organic brain disorder or mental illness or any number of diagnosable and treatable conditions that contributed to his isolation over the years. If every female who crossed his path knew there was something wrong with him, surely his parents must have known there was something wrong with him. Why didn’t his parents get him help? Maybe they tried. Maybe that’s why he hated his brother so much – maybe his brother tried to get him to see a doctor. Or maybe his parents ignored his problems and maybe his brother was a bully. I don’t know.
What I do know is that there was one person who could have made a difference in George Sodini’s life – one person who could have saved him: George Sodini. Why didn’t he help himself? Why couldn’t he bring himself to seek the advice of professional(s)? Why couldn’t he say, “I don’t seem to be able to do the things I see most people around me doing. I don’t seem to be able to form relationships, or make friends, or get a girlfriend. My life is not the life I want and I don’t seem to be able to fix it. Can you help me fix it?”
That’s the question, IMO. Why is it that people still generally shun the help of doctors, therapists, support groups – when the issue at hand is mental illness? How about when the issue is social anxiety? How about when it’s loneliness or isolation or shyness?
Is it embarrassment? Not being able to admit to being friendless? Not being able to admit to needing help in an area of life that many people seem to succeed at effortlessly? Is the facade of happiness more important than actually being happy? Why is the price paid for faking competency in these areas never too high?
While I don’t think George Sodini could have solved his problems on his own, he was the only one who had the power to ask for help. Frankly, figuring out if George Sodini’s father beat him or his mother ignored him isn’t going to prevent more George Sodinis. Figuring out why a lifetime of bitter isolation was preferable to admitting he needed help, and seeking it out – that’s an interesting question. Why did he refuse to take responsibility for finding a solution to such a massive, pervasive, debilitating problem? Because that’s the difference between people who heal and people who don’t: recognizing that the influences and conditions that created the person you are today really don’t matter; what matters is having the courage to do what it takes to fix the problems you have. Or you can let being ashamed of having problems or needing help limit your options, and limit your happiness and fulfillment in life. You can even keep blaming your parents, siblings, teacher, God, your disability, your disease, your birth order, whatever for your unhappiness. I’m sure all those factors have probably legitimately done their share of damage. The problem is that blame – even legitimate, well-placed, well-deserved blame - doesn’t do a goddamned thing to repair the damage. The power to heal is in each of us. The only real question is whether we use that power or not.
Truth, I'm taking some of this as a favorite quote because it's the same thing I try to tell my friends, but worded much much better than I can word it.
05 Oct 2010, 10:02 pm
auntblabby wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
ummmm, the shooter 'scapegoated' a bunch of people in a gym...
it really has nothing at all to do with the women.
it really has nothing at all to do with the women.
your last point was the point i was making in the first place. everybody needs to scapegoat about something. it is far easier on this plane of existence, to destroy rather than to create- or to create something evil rather than to create something life-affirming. negativity and humans go together like maple trees and sap.
mr. sodoni did what he did, and no amount of cursing at him in the grave is going to undo what he did. the damage is done, and more hating isn't going to make it better. why aren't we all about trying to fix whatever it is about our modern society that produces these angst-ridden dysfunctional people? and to those who say he should have just jerked up his own bootstraps and fixed himself post-haste, i have to clumsily mix some metaphors here and say, "if i can't fix my own computer, what makes you think i can fix something so much more complicated and impenetrable as my own psyche?"
only god is in any real moral position to be calling down fire on humans...
because it's not a modern problem. sociopaths (previously called psychopaths) have existed for the length of recorded history. they are as much a part of our society as war or city-dwelling.
i don't think he could have fixed himself, as most sociopaths are not curable or even treatable. sociopathy is the number one indicator of recidivism in paroled violent offenders. i believe this monster was irredeemably flawed.
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06 Oct 2010, 2:16 am
HopeGrows wrote:
Again, @Auntblabby, I’m kinda surprised at you. You seem to have disregarded the main portion of my post, which was not about the castigation and condemnation of George Sodini. Instead, it was about making concrete suggestions to try to help people avoid leading the same kind of miserable, isolated life that Sodini led.
I’m sorry, I don’t think there’s any great mystery about how our society makes these “angst-ridden dysfunctional people.” Its abuse and neglect. Abuse and neglect of children creates angry, dysfunctional, depressed, anxious, abnormal, psychologically troubled adults. Bullying of children by peers and siblings does the same. There’s nothing groundbreaking here.
George Sodini could have had an organic brain disorder or mental illness or any number of diagnosable and treatable conditions that contributed to his isolation over the years. If every female who crossed his path knew there was something wrong with him, surely his parents must have known there was something wrong with him. Why didn’t his parents get him help? Maybe they tried. Maybe that’s why he hated his brother so much – maybe his brother tried to get him to see a doctor. Or maybe his parents ignored his problems and maybe his brother was a bully. I don’t know.
What I do know is that there was one person who could have made a difference in George Sodini’s life – one person who could have saved him: George Sodini. Why didn’t he help himself? Why couldn’t he bring himself to seek the advice of professional(s)? Why couldn’t he say, “I don’t seem to be able to do the things I see most people around me doing. I don’t seem to be able to form relationships, or make friends, or get a girlfriend. My life is not the life I want and I don’t seem to be able to fix it. Can you help me fix it?”
That’s the question, IMO. Why is it that people still generally shun the help of doctors, therapists, support groups – when the issue at hand is mental illness? How about when the issue is social anxiety? How about when it’s loneliness or isolation or shyness?
Is it embarrassment? Not being able to admit to being friendless? Not being able to admit to needing help in an area of life that many people seem to succeed at effortlessly? Is the facade of happiness more important than actually being happy? Why is the price paid for faking competency in these areas never too high?
While I don’t think George Sodini could have solved his problems on his own, he was the only one who had the power to ask for help. Frankly, figuring out if George Sodini’s father beat him or his mother ignored him isn’t going to prevent more George Sodinis. Figuring out why a lifetime of bitter isolation was preferable to admitting he needed help, and seeking it out – that’s an interesting question. Why did he refuse to take responsibility for finding a solution to such a massive, pervasive, debilitating problem? Because that’s the difference between people who heal and people who don’t: recognizing that the influences and conditions that created the person you are today really don’t matter; what matters is having the courage to do what it takes to fix the problems you have. Or you can let being ashamed of having problems or needing help limit your options, and limit your happiness and fulfillment in life. You can even keep blaming your parents, siblings, teacher, God, your disability, your disease, your birth order, whatever for your unhappiness. I’m sure all those factors have probably legitimately done their share of damage. The problem is that blame – even legitimate, well-placed, well-deserved blame - doesn’t do a goddamned thing to repair the damage. The power to heal is in each of us. The only real question is whether we use that power or not.
I’m sorry, I don’t think there’s any great mystery about how our society makes these “angst-ridden dysfunctional people.” Its abuse and neglect. Abuse and neglect of children creates angry, dysfunctional, depressed, anxious, abnormal, psychologically troubled adults. Bullying of children by peers and siblings does the same. There’s nothing groundbreaking here.
George Sodini could have had an organic brain disorder or mental illness or any number of diagnosable and treatable conditions that contributed to his isolation over the years. If every female who crossed his path knew there was something wrong with him, surely his parents must have known there was something wrong with him. Why didn’t his parents get him help? Maybe they tried. Maybe that’s why he hated his brother so much – maybe his brother tried to get him to see a doctor. Or maybe his parents ignored his problems and maybe his brother was a bully. I don’t know.
What I do know is that there was one person who could have made a difference in George Sodini’s life – one person who could have saved him: George Sodini. Why didn’t he help himself? Why couldn’t he bring himself to seek the advice of professional(s)? Why couldn’t he say, “I don’t seem to be able to do the things I see most people around me doing. I don’t seem to be able to form relationships, or make friends, or get a girlfriend. My life is not the life I want and I don’t seem to be able to fix it. Can you help me fix it?”
That’s the question, IMO. Why is it that people still generally shun the help of doctors, therapists, support groups – when the issue at hand is mental illness? How about when the issue is social anxiety? How about when it’s loneliness or isolation or shyness?
Is it embarrassment? Not being able to admit to being friendless? Not being able to admit to needing help in an area of life that many people seem to succeed at effortlessly? Is the facade of happiness more important than actually being happy? Why is the price paid for faking competency in these areas never too high?
While I don’t think George Sodini could have solved his problems on his own, he was the only one who had the power to ask for help. Frankly, figuring out if George Sodini’s father beat him or his mother ignored him isn’t going to prevent more George Sodinis. Figuring out why a lifetime of bitter isolation was preferable to admitting he needed help, and seeking it out – that’s an interesting question. Why did he refuse to take responsibility for finding a solution to such a massive, pervasive, debilitating problem? Because that’s the difference between people who heal and people who don’t: recognizing that the influences and conditions that created the person you are today really don’t matter; what matters is having the courage to do what it takes to fix the problems you have. Or you can let being ashamed of having problems or needing help limit your options, and limit your happiness and fulfillment in life. You can even keep blaming your parents, siblings, teacher, God, your disability, your disease, your birth order, whatever for your unhappiness. I’m sure all those factors have probably legitimately done their share of damage. The problem is that blame – even legitimate, well-placed, well-deserved blame - doesn’t do a goddamned thing to repair the damage. The power to heal is in each of us. The only real question is whether we use that power or not.
If you're drowning, shall I wait for you to ask me for help?
auntblabby
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06 Oct 2010, 2:20 am
HopeGrows wrote:
Again, @Auntblabby, I’m kinda surprised at you. You seem to have disregarded the main portion of my post, which was not about the castigation and condemnation of George Sodini. Instead, it was about making concrete suggestions to try to help people avoid leading the same kind of miserable, isolated life that Sodini led.
for unknown reasons, the point that i in turn made, about how some folk can learn while other folk cannot learn, seems [with one exception] to have been collectively glossed over. going on my own experience before i had even thought about AS in myself, even though i've been in therapy for most of my life, on five separate occasions for protracted periods measured in years, i simply could not see that there was anything wrong with myself, not one iota- i [thought i] was perfect and it was everybody else who were just wrong wrong wrong and evil and stupid and all the rest. i was seeing the shrinks in order to help me cope with an evil world. that is the thing about mental illness, namely that the person suffering from it is often unaware that there is anything wrong with themselves in terms of their own psychological functioning. i was aware that i was addle-brained and effectively hampered in intelligence and had a rotten memory, but psychologically i thought i was perfectly sane and everybody else was against me and insane or evil to some degree. this is what makes sodoni's and kaczinski's stories resonate with me, this one point. after reading about both those afflicted men, i wept because i knew it could just as easily have been me, but for turns of fate and genes that kept me from being effectively violent. i have felt in my heart and head, strong urges to do profound evil to people who have wronged me, but these urges were basically thwarted by a profound timidity/cowardice and mental confusion, much more than any moral influence. to toy with another poster's turn of phrase here, i am basically unfixable.
Hopegrows, your suggestions for aspie self-improvement are perfectly sensible, but sensible does not mix with insensible. for most of my life i was insensible, IOW impervious to sensible things. mr. sodoni was insensible and so was mr. kaczinski despite his superior intelligence. i can't explain it. i'm clueless. i can't seem to learn jacksqwat from anybody, so i find that being a hermit is the only way i can cope with life.
HopeGrows wrote:
I’m sorry, I don’t think there’s any great mystery about how our society makes these “angst-ridden dysfunctional people.” Its abuse and neglect.
the point i was trying to get across was just this- there are other cultures in this world where abuse and neglect are simply unthinkable, so in our culture why doesn't a social critical mass arise sufficient to make abuse and neglect simply unthinkable conduct errors, unspeakably costly to society at large? why do we tolerate this type of dysfunction when as a matter of collective will, it can be corrected? IOW "they can send a man to the moon..." so why can't we learn from other more civilized cultures? the only answer i have been able to find, is that not enough of us give a damn, or that too many of us are on our own superiority trips [i'm speaking of the "america first" and social darwinist people here] to comprehend the suffering in our world or to think that our society could possibly learn something from another culture.
HopeGrows wrote:
The power to heal is in each of us. The only real question is whether we use that power or not.
sorry but i have yet to be able to find the power to heal myself. many different head shrinkers have also failed at this task. so i leave it to god. if there is truly such a thing as agape then it will rescue me from my worst self. i take it one minute at a time much of the time.
auntblabby
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HopeGrows
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06 Oct 2010, 12:21 pm
nostromo wrote:
If you're drowning, shall I wait for you to ask me for help?
No - I'd want you to thow me a lifeline as fast as you could. Question for you: would you expect me to survive if I refused to grab that lifeline?
_________________
What you feel is what you are and what you are is beautiful...
06 Oct 2010, 1:30 pm
HopeGrows wrote:
That’s the question, IMO. Why is it that people still generally shun the help of doctors, therapists, support groups – when the issue at hand is mental illness? How about when the issue is social anxiety? How about when it’s loneliness or isolation or shyness?
Is it embarrassment? Not being able to admit to being friendless? Not being able to admit to needing help in an area of life that many people seem to succeed at effortlessly? Is the facade of happiness more important than actually being happy? Why is the price paid for faking competency in these areas never too high?
Hi Hope Grows,
You make good points, but RE: the above, there is an explanation why a lot of people like this do not seek help --
From the wikipedia entry on Avoidant Personality Disorder -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_p ... y_disorder
Quote:
Treatment of AvPD can employ various techniques, such as social skills training, cognitive therapy, exposure treatment to gradually increase social contacts, group therapy for practising social skills, and sometimes drug therapy.[13] A key issue in treatment is gaining and keeping the patient's trust, since people with AvPD will often start to avoid treatment sessions if they distrust the therapist or fear rejection. The primary purpose of both individual therapy and social skills group training is for individuals with AvPD to begin challenging their exaggeratedly negative beliefs about themselves.
So that's the thing -- if you already perceive rejection everywhere you turn, even falsely, you may very well be too shy for therapy without a friend or family member pushing you on.
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