Look out! It's a Nice Guy! DESTROY HIM!!

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Thats correct.

It means that you try to use a word, that means "showing quality or being worthy of", in combination with a word that cant be linked together, because of it being something that cannot be acchieved by quality or being worthy.

According to that, to say "You dont deserve the Mars.", would mean, that you were not worthy or valuable because of you not deserving the Mars.

Yop, and sense should tell you, that there are some things, that simply cannot be deserved or not deserved, because of them being things that people cannot influence. The only one that could willingly influence if a girl falls in love to you, and so wants to be in an relationship with you, was god if he existed. Because of me denying the existence of a god, there is simply noone to demand what you deserve or not deserve about that in my opinion. Did you ever have the idea of maybe identifying your worth on yourself and your behavior, instead of something that cant be deserved, because of it not being willingly influenced?

I think its rather harsh of you to tell such stuff about nice guys.

Your dictionary is right about the word, but an relationship simply cant be earned or not earned as I mentioned and explained first start with "There is no: You have to do or be like that and then you deserve an relationship." So as already explained at the beginning, you simply cannot "do something or have or show qualities worthy of".

If such thing would exist according to you, where can I get the list of things I have to earn my right to deserve a man for an relationship, and if I then deserve a man for an relationship, where can I pick my relationship-man up? And who is to blame, if they dont have a man for an relationship for me on stock, when I want to pick it up? So if I deserve one, there has to be someone being responsible, if they have run out, while I deserved one.

Last edited by Schneekugel on 29 Jul 2013, 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well, this is a long post and I spent time enough. I will take a break and later I will read it slowly before answering. Just a couple of things.

Far from it. Nope, I'm not violent at all. Indeed, check that video (I recommend you this radio, by the way), which is by the way about men and women too:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgmEnLkFl3o[/youtube]

And this is exactly how I look like. Well, younger, or course. But same way of speaking, and gestures, and moving... kind of funny, indeed. Even same hairstyle. Dammit.

In my relationships? I'm veeeery patient. Yeap, truely. I have discovered that I'm almost always right. And nope, I'm not showing off, indeed, this a kind of a problem, to be honest. People forgive you being fervent about something when at the end of the day you were wrong. But they hardly forget you to have been right. I know it the hard way. So usually I let the partner (or whoever) 'to be right' while I prepare discretely the 'plan B' so there's not such a mess in switching later.

Last edited by Greb on 29 Jul 2013, 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

But it works both ways.
Men don't have a right to expect sex.
And women don't have a right to expect a relationship.

I don't expect any guy I go on a date with, or 3 or 8, or even 12 dates to call me afterwards - let alone think I am in a relationship with them (unless he has stated otherwise, and his actions and words match up 100%). If he does, great, if not, what does it matter?

A common mistake I see girls make is expect a guy to call them because they went on a date. They spend the entire time that he doesn't - a day, 2 days, 3 days, a week, freaking out over the fact that he didn't, obsessing and analysing it. Then they pick up the phone and can't help but text him because of their expectations. It almost always makes the guy in question either run away faster, or relegate them to "booty call" status. They're expecting a relationship and it bites them in the butt in the same way - it only makes guys run away faster or use them.

Last edited by Kjas on 29 Jul 2013, 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Out of topic: I wonder if "Beziehungmann" is a valid German word, and relationship-man its English substitute. Or to generalize, if all the times Schneekugel writes two words with a "-" in between they could have been expressed as a single word in German.

........que?

What does this have anything to do with what I just typed? I was basically saying that everything you and the other women have said in this thread pretty much pales in comparison to the real reason women get so worked up about this topic:

Because women carry the biological burden of pregnancy, they have, for evolutionary reasons, more cause to get freaked out by the idea of being propositioned for sex by someone they don't want it from. I think that's what's really at the root of it.

Also, the fact that the males making said proposition are well-equipped to force said proposition.

But it's probably similar to how men tend to feel the say way when propositioned with marriage - no?
They do not want to waste how ever many years worth of resources.
Essentially making each issue a huge thing for each respectively as they carry equal or almost equal weight to said correlating sex - hence my point.

I see most of these discussions as "niceness as facade". If we are discussing a truly nice guy, he'd be well adjusted enough to move on to something positive instead of dwelling on whatever unfairness he perceives to be true.

Greb: something that came to my mind too, the definition of nice guy I chose to use is not arbitrary. It is the definition used by the bulk of feminist literature to describe a rather specific kind of guy, the definition that was challenged by the woman in the video you posted. So within the context of discussing that video and the role nice guys play in general, that definition is the one that should be used. To do it properly I'd use "Nice Guy™" which better shows the irony, but I want to make it clear that we're not pulling that definitions out of our arses as your kills kitten example suggests, but there is already a very specific and established definition of nice guys in existence.

Well, any word is OK as long as you define it. We can define 'niceness' as a facade. And that's OK.

BUT...

Then it's necessary for the debate to be coherent with this definition.

What men call nice guys is usually those guys who are not considered attractive by women because the niceness and whose claim is 'why something that is not a negative trait has to be valued such in a negative when it comes to partnership'.

Of course, there's another definition, feminist according to Shabat, that is perfectly right too. But then we're talking about another thing. We can't say 'I like the room in orange' and sticking to the definition of 'orange' as a fruit. Of course, 'orange' means a fruit too, but it doesn't make sense in this context. If the video talks about that guys who claim not be considered attractive because something that is not a negative trait, we must use a definition that makes sense with it.

Now... niceness a a facade?? well, yeap, though I always used the word 'as*holes' to describe those guys. Because they're very obvious. It's like the 'Oh, I'm so romantic' guy who is trying to take out his dong after five minutes. Dear god, you smell him before he turns the corner.

I have had this debate with female friends saying 'c'mon, this guy is an as*hole'. And not only me, but the whole group of male friends (we have a radar to detect those guys). And you know, women never listen. They see what they want to see. If they want to see 'niceness', they see niceness, even though all males friends say 'wtf, he's an as*hole'. You can't stop people believing what they want to believe.

If you want to believe that an as*hole is a nice guy, that's OK. But don't blame nice guys out there. Because it's unfair. It's like a guy dressing up as a doctor to con you and take your money, and when you find out, your deduction is 'hey, doctors are as*holes'.

One question. In that case, how then do you know when you are in a relationship? If it was only one date sure but I thought that a girlfriend or boyfriend was often defined as someone that you happen to be dating at the time, often as a precursor to engagement or marriage but could also be the precursor to a committed relationship without getting married.

I'd differentiate between the guys who use niceness as a facade and the ones who are nice to everyone in a weak sort of way. I've seen guys who act all good with women when they are interested in them but then insult them behind their backs, and are generally unpleasant when there is nobody in their vicinity they want to hit on. Those are the most obvious ones, but they're not the most prevalent case, or the ones I want to talk about.
I read a book about this issue, and it gives a good definition of them

They don't have evil intent, and this whole "do nice things and have sex/a relationship" is subconscious, a consequence of some core beliefs, and that's why I don't really approve them being viciously bashed by some feminist blogs, as that accomplishes nothing and very few people will agree with someone who is insulting them and overblowing things. But there is a truth, which is, the nice guys I just described tend to be unsuccessful with women and passed over, they can make good friends but they are simply not attractive to women. This is the definition of nice guy I will use from now on.

It would be "Beziehungsmann", although in this case, you'd probably have to explain what you mean by it, as it is not a common term. In general, those kinds of composites seem to be more common in German than in English, and it seems more permissible to from your own composites (that's just my impression though). These composites are often used when you need to refer to a combination of concepts with a single term frequently, so you don't have to describe the term each time you use it. So they're often (but not exclusively) used in philosophical or psychological texts.
I guess you can see using hyphens as the English equivalent (although I get the impression that the rest of the world isn't as fond of hyphens as German speaking people either).

I didn't understand the point you were making in your last post, but in this one I understand it. Yes, I would agree completely: Biological burden or not, once marriage comes into the equation, men will act much the same way. However, when marriage is not on the table, they wouldn't react nearly as strongly.

A guy that is being propositioned by a girl he has no intention of marrying = Doesn't freak out at all.

A woman that is being propositioned by a man that she is not attracted to = Time to get worked up.

The difference here is that it doesn't take marriage for a woman to get pregnant.

We must know some different men then because most of the ones I know freak the holy hell out over it, and do blow up, but simply do it in a different way. They may laugh it off afterwards, joke about it and be mean about it, but the initial reactions I have seen are still the blow up kind.

Dating someone is different from being in a relationship. Dating is just dating. Getting to know them.
I prefer to get to know them so I can observe them for a length of time and keep the physical stuff slow, minimal or non existent - at least that way I have a good amount of time to see what I'm getting into.

It's a relationship when they actually ask you to be their girlfriend, before that both are free to do whatever they please - a relationship has a clearly stated agreement to not date anyone else once you are their girlfriend. Although some people prefer open relationships, and have their own set of rules or agreements in place. But they are spoken agreements. The point is that someone actually comes out and makes a verbal agreement, after which the agreed upon points are ok to expect.

My main problem with the idea of a "nice guy" is that it doesn't take much of an effort to be one. Apparently, a "nice guy" is a person who is polite and dignified and doesn't seek to harm others. Well that's great and all, but it's not very hard, and I'm not sure why it deserves a reward. I mean, it's pretty much the bare minimum of what being a good person is about.

If you want to be a really "nice guy", how about doing something like volunteering your time and effort to help disadvantaged people? I guarantee that if you do that, you'll get lots of romantic attention. And if a cocky meathead does volunteer work, it seems to me that they are probably actually a "nicer guy" than some guy whose main claim to fame is that he is reserved and unassuming.

Last edited by Declension on 29 Jul 2013, 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thè sad part is most girls like this manage to have normal dating lives while an average or below average guy would be beyond incel if he had standards that high.