This "nice guys and jerks" thing..

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The inner caveman seeks 'hot bodies' and the inner cavewomen seeks 'power'. There are evolutionary arguments why this makes sense, but today many, many men and women can rock their gender without being controlled by their inner cavepersons.

I was your age in the early 70s, and things must have really gone downhill since then in male-female relationships with all the stuff I am hearing. We were the ones who threw all this gender stereotyping out the window - I didn't realize the cat came back. Drat!



Can I get a T-shirt??

I wonder.. we should start a survey or something about if women who feel more powerful are less likely want a man who can protect them, or if they'll want an even stronger man.
Much of the protection I need from Kris is emotional and social.. As the pit-bull-owning daughter of a lifetime NRA member, I don't tend to get all that nervous about my physical safety.

The thing about the whole 70s equality thing is that it turned girls being equal to boys into girls being the same as boys.
Being able to do the same things doesn't mean being happy doing the same things, or doing things in the same ways. As girls gained access to the same things as boys, the same opportunities, expectations changed, and the things that used to make women special started to disappear. Girls are emotionally, physically, and chemically DIFFERENT. We tend to have different learning styles, different styles in doing a lot of things.. the efforts to become equal became, in a lot of ways, efforts to just snuff out femininity. Opportunities are good, but when they turn into devaluing anything traditionally associated with women, and looking down on women who choose more traditional roles, you have to wonder if it's actually progress. A lot of girls now are just getting frustrated with it.
Like how so many doctors will say that AS doesn't exist in girls, just because it presents differently. It's turned into a hidden sexism, masked as equality. In the name of equality, girls are being considered the same as boys, and so nobody is paying attention to the differences in emotions and behaviors based on the same disorders.

Can you honestly say that it's improved the position of women for "mother" to not be considered a valuable role and occupation?

My views are unusual, I guess.. there's something I'm thinking that I know just isn't coming out right.. I was raised so very progressively that there's a lot of me that wants to rebel against that, but it's more than that. I mean, I know the female position has improved in a lot of ways.. but it seems like so much of it is on a Freudian basis of girls just being boys without penises, so we lost what made women special. OK, I think that last part was my main point there, so I'll repeat it..
[I]t seems like so much of it [progressive female equality] is on a Freudian basis of girls just being boys without penises, so we lost what made women special.

Does that make sense?



I think I'll work on one of those, actually..

Second wave feminism is dead, long live the third wave.

Androgyny had its heyday in the 80s and it came and went. People don't have to feel guilty about what they find attractive, and they don't have to apologize for finding "stereotypical" masculine or feminine traits sexy.

The heart wants what the heart wants. That's one area of human behavior that doesn't require political intervention.

No



You guys are assuming that embracing diversity and meeting each person as an individual is the equivalent of androgyny and lost penises.

In a world that embraces diversity you can like whomever you wish based on the criteria of your choice and be yourself, no matter how stereotypic or not.

The ONLY difference is that YOU would allow others the freedom to be themselves too no matter how complex or vibrant they are.

Dictating narrow roles for people based on anatomy, skin color, or other mono-trait would no longer occur.
Assigning degrading pseudo-psychological diagnoses would stop.

Demeaning those who actually are androgynous by using this trait in an attempt to insult others would no longer happen.
I yam who I yam - I defy stereotype. I don't do weapons, the NRA disgusts me, and every pit-bull I've known has been a lover, but...

I am woman, mother of five, sister, and hot chick. I love to laugh and I melt when someone opens a door for me. I rock my sensuality. But I am also powerful and independent. I am a second degree black belt. I have been awarded a master’s of science. I am head of household and the sole provider. I have done all of this and more with significant barriers to NTWorld. Because I get up every morning ready to kick butt and I don’t give the insulting nonsense you spew any regard.

I have done all of this despite people who tried to squash me into a stereotype. I have had people such you tell me that I will never amount to anything because of "disability." I grew up in a time when people were supposed to know their place and stay there. But I have always believed that living well is the best revenge. But you know what guys????

No one who has ever met me ever insinuated that I am a-guy-who-lost-my-penis or that I am androgynous.

So I applaud that you know who YOU are and I am pleased YOU feel comfortable in your chosen roles. I celebrate the conversations we have when you talk about something other than what women and men are SUPPOSED to be.

Get over trying to tell me who I am supposed to be.

I never said otherwise... but no matter how friendly the dog, someone would have to be an idiot to try to attack me in her presence.



I'm not trying to
You can be whoever you want. Just do it because it's who you are, not to rebel against men.
Your generation rebelled against the constraints of gender roles. For most of my generation, female roles are shameful, and it SUCKS.

Yo - I am not rebelling against men I am asking you, and those who keep agreeing with you, not to say that women who are like me are bad (e.g. deserve sexism, violence, name calling such as androgenous or penisless).

You are invited give even one instance where I put down men. I did speak against sexism and violence against women (or anyone for that matter), but sexism and violence are actions not people. I believe that all people deserve to be loved and respected.



I am saying embrace all kinds of people typical and atypical. There should be no shame in you being your authentic self.



I am asking you, and those who agree with you about what a piece of s**t I am (e.g. deserve sexism & violence, name calling such as androgenous or penisless, etc.), to stop using this forum to say that women like me are bad

I have tried to present reasons why the words you all write might be offensive to women like me. I have tried to give you a picture of a world where people respect each other as individuals.

Some how you all take it as a personal attack that I don't accept the unkind things you say about women like me and extrapolate it to mean that I hate men.

I will keep on trying to help you see that it is okay for women like me to be part of this world.

Just like it is okay for you to be part of this world

just like its okay for all the different kinds of women reading this thread to be part of this world

Just like it is okay for all of the different men reading this thread to be part of this world

...and for all of these people to accept themselves without shame.

Everytime you all put down a group of people for unique expression of their gender, race, sexual oreintation, disability, age, or any number of harmless characteristics - I will be here to call you on it!

omg this thread is really getting rediculous

I just wanted to say it's not all about muscles and alpha male attitudes. That will help if you're just looking for a quick lay with a woman wandering the bars, but for something akin to marriage, not the way to go.

You would be surprised how much of an impact it leaves when someone who is obviously extremely shy lets an individual have a piece of his mind. I'm no alpha-male by any means, but that doesn't mean I'm a doormat. It's all about knowing which strings to pull to let people know it's not going to be in their favor to mess with you.

And, women see this. It's not about being aggressive, a jerk, or a nice guy. They just don't want a doormat who lets other people run all over him. A wallflower who knows how to avoid being run over will in many cases for many women be more attractive than the assertive quarterback across the room.

And, quite honestly, unless they had a traumatic childhood or grew up as a cheerleader, big muscles are going to be of secondary importance compared to the other parts of who you are. Intelligence, compassion, personality, and just how much other people are allowed to run over you all factor into the situation. Remember, we're not in high school anymore. That is the one area we're truly completely screwed, but once in the real world, it's a lot better.

Well spoken, CerebralDreamer

What if they have intelligence, compassion, personality, muscles, and alpha qualities?

Hmmm....so do you women associate a guy who you feel is letting you walk all over him, to a guy who let's anyone else walk over him?

"You women?" Hey, Lexxi, aren't you supposed to be a woman, too? hummm. . I knew there was something fishy here.

Merle
Moderator

Now, where did you say this was? Perhaps you should introduce us....

Putting rare fetishes aside, usually a girl prefers a guy who's stronger/wealthier/socially better than her. If the girl is a strong one then she would be attracted to a guy who's stronger than her. That's why 95% of couples look like this : Taller man-smaller woman , the guy is usually taller and bigger despite the fact that there are good % of women who are taller than fair % of men, so it's not a coincidence.

So no, in general women who feel powerful still want a man who's even more powerful than her or at least as powerful as her.

And those are cave instincts.

I heard there's one in Pennsylvania, but that hasn't been verified.

[quote="LePetitPrince"]Putting rare fetishes aside, usually a girl prefers a guy who's stronger/wealthier/socially better than her. If the girl is a strong one then she would be attracted to a guy who's stronger than her. quote]

I lived in Vermont for 25 years. Before all the yuppies arrived, the state actually had the now endangered creature, the "real vermonter" (the Man with a Plan is a real vermonter). One of the subtypes is a little scrawny man married to a great big woman. It was pretty common to see them.

I think young girls and guys frequently want a storybook romance. As they mature, other attributes take presidence. The big studds might be philanderers for example. Maybe the cheerleader remains shallow and unintersting. Suddenly the person you overlooks begins to look really good.

My week spot has always been the guy who made me laugh. He always had me at gafaw!