Question for the women, trying to understand something.

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hale_bopp
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30 Jul 2009, 5:09 am

KenM wrote:

I read alot of posts from women on WP saying how men with AS give off a "feeling" or a "vibe" that they are different and unattactive and it makes women not want to go out wiith them, reject them, and put them in the "friend zone".

Can anyone tell me what is this feeling and vibe? What can us guys with AS do to fix it?

The first problem is your misconception that women do that to men because they have AS, and you're using it as an excuse. Every aspergers person is different, and it may be something completely unrelated to the condition that puts women off.

Examples:

Needyness
stalking
wanting to rush into relationships

These traits are present in people - both aspergers and not.

I don't know you personally, but from your posts, you seem to be quite needy, often using your condition as an excuse and displaying a victim complex. These are very unnattractive traits. I don't know what you're like in real life so I cannot judge.

Referring to women as "Demons from hell" certainly isn't going to get you one.

KenM wrote:

laura123 wrote:

I get the vibe before I get to talk to them. It's not always very strong, sometimes it difficult to identify what exactlly is diferent but I get the feeling that something IS different.

So when you get that vibe, do you automacally stay away from them? You are not giving them a fair chance if you are. I think alot of women are like that and they don't want to get to know people that are different. :cry:

When I tell someone I'm interested in that I think we would make a good couple, its after I have gotten to know them a bit and we have gone out and hung out a few times. I don't say that first date because I don't want to come on too strong.

People should never be obliged to spend time with someone they get a bad vibe from- its a personal decision.

My reccomendation for you is to not say that at all.. I am not speaking for other women but if anyone said that to me I would run in the opposite direction as fast as I can.

The first thing you need to do to keep women interested is lose the victim complex. This is not easy, your best bet wuld be perhaps to talk to somoene about it or get councilling? Until this happens women will be put off. Rejection certainly makes people feel a lot worse, and is hard to pull yourself out once you've been shot down over and over again. I have the same problem with my self esteem, and so i am hoping to take my own advice and see if it helps. Good luck

the_wife
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30 Jul 2009, 9:25 am

Feyhera wrote:

And where are these girls who find the vulnerable AS quality attractive? Most seriously dating, relatively mature young women would. Because they're dating to find someone for THEMSELVES, not dating to find someone who their vapid girlfriends will think is "acceptable". So, maybe you should be spending your fleeting youth working on yourself and stop expecting maturity from others when you haven't gained it for yourself yet. And I mean that in a friendly and helpful way. :wink:

I absolutely agree. They ARE out there. Maybe they're not as noticeable because they tend to keep a low profile and aren't just out there putting on their own shows to gain attention.

Aspies are straightforward, honest, intelligent, low-maintenance (I think), and low drama. Just be yourself and don't overthink things. And stay away from the Paris Hiltons.

0_equals_true
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30 Jul 2009, 9:52 am

Feyhera wrote:

I like your example, but have to disagree with the conclusion that, in the wild, dogs don't act neurotically. Maybe I'm seeing a different thing in my head than what you were referring to, but, nervous behavior is quite common in wolves and is a sign of submission. What may be happening sometimes when an aspie's body language telegraphs submissiveness is that he's triggering an unconscious response from the more "alpha" humans around him to "attack" -- because, in the wild, weakness is often met with domination:

Yes you did misunderstand. Submission is completely different state than neurotic, and neurotic is not just anxious behaviour. It is normal pack behaviour to submit to a more dominant. Neurosis is a state where the dog does not know its role in the pack and become very jumpy, runs in circles, barks a lot, may attack an gnaw at inanimate objects and may bite but not is calm dominant or naturally aggressive. This happens with human because humans humanise pets, where as dogs need to be treated as part of a pack.

Wolves and African Wild Dogs behaviour is somewhat different from modern dogs. Dingoes are much closer to domestic dogs. Dogs are thought o become domesticated because we would leaves scraps of meat from hunting lying about and they started living on the periphery and slowly they become accustomed to each other.

0_equals_true
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30 Jul 2009, 9:59 am

zena4 wrote:

May I say something about the perfumes?

If I was a mother's son, I wouldn't advise him to offer perfumes.

Well for one I wouldn't buy anything smelly, I wouldn't want to smell :lol:

I think I put an entry in the aspie pick up line joke thread: "You smell like the ground floor of Debenhams, but otherwise..."

roadGames
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30 Jul 2009, 1:24 pm

Feyhera wrote:

Some guys, and this goes for NTs as well, make the mistake of thinking that if they show any mooshy-squooshy type emotion or allow themselves to be vulnerable in any way, that all the girls around them will think they can walk all over them. Well, the girls that do that are very immature and selfish and not ready for a relationship anyway. I really hear more of a maturity issue here rather than an AS issue. There's a reason people are cautioned to wait til they're at least older than 25 to get married, you know. It's because at 18 thru 25 most of us are just too young, too inexperienced, too selfish, too insecure to form good, strong intimate bonds with others. Between these ages, people really need to just be learning. And sometimes, hell a lot of the time, learning arrives in the form of pain, disappointment and frustration. Again, this goes for NTs and aspies alike. Believe it or not, that pain is not a punishment, or always a sign to stop doing something or to avoid certain situations altogether. It's not black and white. Getting hurt, or losing out on a situation, if you allow the lessons in, can give you the experience and understanding to do better next time.

And where are these girls who find the vulnerable AS quality attractive? Most seriously dating, relatively mature young women would. Because they're dating to find someone for THEMSELVES, not dating to find someone who their vapid girlfriends will think is "acceptable". So, maybe you should be spending your fleeting youth working on yourself and stop expecting maturity from others when you haven't gained it for yourself yet. And I mean that in a friendly and helpful way. :wink:

You are basically dead on, I think.

Feyhera wrote:

Where are these girls? On dates with you! And then you reject them.

I've never actually dated any of the girls that expressed interest outright. I've just let it sizzle into nothing, or not even noticed that they were interested in me until a friend tells me a few weeks later. The last girl who expressed interest in me that I ignored was not even intentional on my part! I didn't mean to ignore her at all, it just came out of nowhere and blindsided me. I regret doing literally nothing quite a bit.

KenM
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30 Jul 2009, 5:36 pm

hale_bopp wrote:

I don't know you personally, but from your posts, you seem to be quite needy, often using your condition as an excuse and displaying a victim complex. These are very unnattractive traits. I don't know what you're like in real life so I cannot judge.

You have judged me with that statement. I have tryed talking to a professenal. It never helps. I challenge you or anyone else to have nothing but rejection from people you are interested in all you life and not feel the way I do.
I know people without AS also give off those vibes or feelings. But from what I have read on WP, alot of people get that feeling from people with AS.
So you would run as fast as you can from someone that asked you to be upfront and honest with what you say and do? Whats wrong with asking someone to be honest? What do you have to hide?
I'm not asking women to stay with me if they get a bad vibe. I'm asking what is this vibe they get and what can I do to change it.

makuranososhi
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30 Jul 2009, 5:49 pm

KenM wrote:

hale_bopp wrote:

The assessment was on what you had written, not you as a person, KenM. Upfront and honest is one thing, but if the two people are in different places, with different opinions and perspectives, then what you see as being forthright is taken as being obsessive or clingy or any other way imaginable. Realize that where you are is not the same as the person across the table from you. No one is going to feel like you, because no one is you - your challenge is just a self-fulfilling prophecy so that you can justify how you feel. Either be willing to change your approach, or be willing to accept the outcome - my two bits.

M.

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So long, and thanks for all the fish!

KenM
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30 Jul 2009, 6:13 pm

I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks its ok to be dishonest and play games when someone asks them not to is not worth having anyway.

Why does everyone think its ok for people to be dishonest?

makuranososhi
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30 Jul 2009, 6:21 pm

KenM wrote:

I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks its ok to be dishonest and play games when someone asks them not to is not worth having anyway.

Why does everyone think its ok for people to be dishonest?

And who suggested such a thing, Ken, other than yourself? You seem to think that just because you feel something that the person you're talking to is ready to hear such things, or in the manner you feel is appropriate - which is simply -not- the case. Choosing when and how to say something isn't being dishonest, it is being discerning. Until you make that distinction, then I fear that you will continue to be unhappy with how you see the world.

You've changed the subject, Ken - you were not attacked, but your words here were assessed and critiqued. You ask for what gives them a vibe, and get defensive when someone follows through. It does not create an environment that invites more feedback and help for your cause.

M.

Janissy
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30 Jul 2009, 6:30 pm

KenM wrote:

hale_bopp wrote:

Going strictly from your posts, my guess is that this vibe they get that drives them off is clinginess and a rush into relationship. If women ever get the feeling that you want them to decide RIGHT NOW whether or not they will commit to a relationship, the answer will always be no. Even in online dating services where everybody is presumably shopping for a relationship, pressure to say "yes, we should be a couple" will drive women away. Upthread you said that you sometimes said after a few dates "I think we would make a good couple". I will repeat what I said in answer to that. Don't ever say that. Don't ever. Bite your tongue iof the urge for that kind of honesty comes over you. To you it feels like honest (because you honestly do think you would make a good couple). To many women,it feels like pressure to commit and clinginess. It's ok to say "I like you", but stop there. Don't make woman feel like she has to decide right now if you will be a couple or not. Her decision will always be no.

Janissy
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30 Jul 2009, 6:37 pm

KenM wrote:

I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks its ok to be dishonest and play games when someone asks them not to is not worth having anyway.

Why does everyone think its ok for people to be dishonest?

You don't have to be dishonest. But you can't say everything that comes into your head. Some things must stay as thoughts only. I will repeat one last time, do not say "I think we would make a good couple" to a woman even if you honestly thinkyou would make a good couple. It isn't dishonest to edit what you say and not say everything you are thinking. You have to edit out everything that makes woman feel that you want her to commit RIGHT NOW and that you are clingy. If you continue saying these things in the name of honesty and not playing games, you will continue to turn women away.

This isn't meant to attack you. This is meant as throwing you a life preserver.

KenM
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30 Jul 2009, 7:43 pm

I have never said after I tell someone I want them to be upfront and honest with me or that I think we would make a good couple that I want them to commit right now "or else". Stop putting words that I have NEVER said in my mouth. In the case of saying we make a good couple, I just mention it and let them think about. In the case of tell people I would like them to be honest and upfront and not mislead me, I tell them a little about my AS and how I have trouble reading people so we can try and commucate better. Why does everyone think thats a bad thing?

OK, so I won't say how i really feel about people to them. I will be totally misleading and dishonest and when they ask me how I feel I won't give them a direct answer and feel like crap because I'm being misleading.

I will not change how I feel. If people think that being upfront and honest is bad, then that person has issues. At least I can sleep at night knowing I have not mislead anyone and I am upfront. Unlike 99% of the women I have dealt with.

" Ken I know last night I kissed you full on the mouth and it was a deep passionate kiss, but I did not mean it THAT way."

Someone did that to me. One night we share a deep passionate kiss, then the next day she tells me that, her exact words. No mixed signals there. I said to her 'well how do you mean it when you kiss someone like that?" and she could not answer.

Its crap like this that has happened to me and everyone wonders why I want people to be upfront and honest? If I don't get this emotional need meet soon I know I am going to kill myself. Most women have been misleading and dishonest with me in some way.

makuranososhi
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30 Jul 2009, 8:20 pm

Then listen to what is being said - saying that you'd be a good couple on the third date is a bad idea. It isn't a matter of being dishonest, but -you- are putting a burden of decision on the other person which will almost always result in a negative response as a protective measure. Your approach is creating the responses you are receiving. You are the one displeased with the results, so you are telling us that this is a bad thing for you.

Your response is way overboard - no one is saying being deceptive, or misleading, or anything else. Discover the option to simply say nothing at all. That isn't being a liar, it is being aware.

M.

MorbidMiss
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30 Jul 2009, 8:44 pm

To break it down as I do for my eleven year old: Just because you are thinking something does not mean you need to say it.

I understand that it can be frustrating, particularly the bit about the kiss... however, perhaps she was just caught up in the moment and later felt regret. Or it could be that she was looking for a hook up and not a relationship. It isn't unheard of.

However, this bitterness you have developed in response to females... that might be the "vibe" they are picking up. If you have a chip on your shoulder from the onset, then they are going to feel that and want to escape.

KenM
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30 Jul 2009, 8:56 pm

MorbidMiss wrote:

However, this bitterness you have developed in response to females... that might be the "vibe" they are picking up. If you have a chip on your shoulder from the onset, then they are going to feel that and want to escape.

I am a product of what happens to me. I have been trying to have a reltionship since i was in my teens. I never had one. I have always been rejected. I'm 41 years old. Tell me, if every person you ever were interested in rejected you, you work on yourself, try to change, adapt, but everything you try does not work and you still get rejected, would'nt you feel a little bitter? I make no apologies for how I feel. The ones that rejected me made me like this. If just one person gave me a chance, I would not feel the way I do. But no one has. So I am suposted to let my chip on my shoulder go away so I can be rejected and crapped on again? All my life has been rejection.

As far as that vibe, I meant it in a general sense, like I said in my first post, I read on WP that people say that most guys with AS give off that vibe and i was trying to figure out what it is to try and change it.

hale_bopp
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30 Jul 2009, 9:13 pm

KenM wrote:

I have only judged what is presented to me, what you say via your posts.
Trust me I am well aware what its like being shot down. Being shot down in other ways is just as painful as being shot down in romantic ways.

I am just trying to help, not attck you with the victim complex thing. You would e better off asking people who actually know you, as I do not.

I didn't say I would run from someone up front an honest, I said I was run from someone rying to rush into a relationship.

Quote:

" Ken I know last night I kissed you full on the mouth and it was a deep passionate kiss, but I did not mean it THAT way."

Well I agree, that certainly is bizzare.

Quote:

That would certainly make anyone miserable. No-one is denying that. What sort of women do you usually go for, if you don't mind me asking?

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