where have all the 18-30 ladies gone?

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when will they ever learn? when will they ev-ver learn?

No no, what I mean is that you're only looking in that tiny circle for something that is very powerful and hard for anyone to find, even in this day and age of communications technology. I'm suggesting that you relax about finding anyone and branch out, not by leaving your church, but by using that safety net while you search elsewhere. Now, I've met quite a few guys who will not get deeply involved until they really know a woman, and have still succeeded through dating sites. You've probably tried that, but if you're also relaxed about it, rather than desperate, you have a far better chance of success. That's what I've been toting this whole time.

As trite as it sounds, "can't" attitudes really can f*ck you over, just as much as desperation--the two are intimately related negativity. Desperation requires a driving need or desire that is so wholly selfish you stop being able to see the bigger picture, the deeper undercurrents, and the possibilities.

Your church is your family, a network of comfort and safety where you need it. The way I see it, the same way you wouldn't look to family for a romantic partner (...yeah, you know), don't look to your congregation. They're going to be there for you, but you also need to be there for yourself, just as I said here (please, read), because that's where God communicates -- through you. That's the journey you have to take, and once you do, you'll find that you're not alone, and the inner peace will allow you to glow from within. That's where your success lies, because that positivity is very attractive, regardless, to those women who can share the same, and those are the women it seems you want.

I hope you'll consider this.

Which goes back to the other root problem: there is only 24 hours in a day. Between the stuff I do at college and my church, that's all of the time that I can afford to give. I've been working very hard to just make things work seamlessly around there, and have become so entrenched in church activities that while people appreciate me as a person there, they take for granted what I do around there. If I had to stop doing things to pursue other interests, that appreciation would probably be replaced by immense frustration among many people that aforementioned appreciation would probably evaporate... so I either have to keep doing everything I have been or make a clean break for it and leave the church entirely...


I thought it was supposedly healthy to know what you can and cannot do... so many people think they have no limits, and it only hurts them in the end...


But how can you be positive when nothing positive happens in your life anymore?


I know I sound like a jackass in my responses, but I'm really trying to consider it. I've resolved to set up an appointment with the senior pastor next week. I think I've given so much of myself to the church over the last 8 to 9 years that maybe the church should do something for me, if only to help me regain my mental and spiritual health. If they can't at least attempt to start some outreach ministry geared towards young adults, I'm going to have to leave...

I totally know how that feels. I left the church I went to for two years for more reasons than just having no peers. Because I was single and didn't have children, the people in charge tried to get me to do everything a woman was allowed to do in that church. As much as I adore children and baking, I got really tired of teaching Sunday School every week, baking way too many brownies and never actually getting any sort of outreach back.

But please, please don't think that there is nothing positive in your life. Churches are made up of people and people are flawed. So, yeah, churches are flawed. But the love of God is an amazing thing, the one, true good thing-- and it is ALWAYS there. It took me trying to kill myself to find that out, man, but He is always there. Talk to Him. Pursue Him for a while (in a totally heterosexual way... I think you know what I mean). When my last boyfriend and I broke up, which was in March, I told myself that I was unavailable for a while. I dated Jesus. Still am. I'm just not unavailable anymore, because through His love I have allowed myself to open back up to the possibility of being my broken self with another broken person again. He will do amazing things through you. Just keep the faith!

Noooooooo. You really don't have to do this. People step back their responsibilities in volunteer organizations all the time. You don't have to make a choice between continuing at this high level of responsibilities or leaving altogether. You don't. People will understand. Other people do it all the time.

If you tell people you are stepping it back because you want to spend some more time with organizations for people your age, they will understand. They were all your age once. Nobody expects a 21 year old man to spend all his free time with children and married couples. They won't stop you from decoting all your time to them if it seems that's what you want (probably how it seems now) but they will not be outraged to discover you crave the company of other people in their 20's. They may even point you to some volunteering opportunities or groups for young adults that you hadn't noticed because you were so busy with them.

Janissy is correct about this observation...

but...

I think I also understand where Toad is coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong, Toad, but my guess is that you know that people step back from their responsibilities all the time, as Janissy is saying. However, this is something you are very reluctant to do because at the very least 1) it would look like a lack of loyalty on your part, and 2) you want to feel like you play a critical role in your church, and you don't want people to forget you. Knowing that other people do this all the time and would understand if you did it too would still be little consolation about the prospect of yourself doing it.

Orbyss is spot on, I think, in describing your church as the family and safety net for you. The problem here though is that your relationship with your church is not as secure, perhaps, as it would be with a close familial relationship, with say a brother or sister you could trust. Because no matter what you did, a brother and sister would always be that to you, and with that security in mind, you'd be more willing to leave the safety of your shell and explore other things and meet new people. Without that security, you are doubtful that the relationship with your church will persist, and therefore afraid that your shell will disappear once you leave it. This is why I think you spend so much time with your church: for that security. But with all the time spent to try to enhance that security, you are left with little time and energy for other things.

Orbyss and Janissy are right, you do need to start looking outside of the church. Unfortunately, it's simply not going to happen until you are able to find something more like a very stable family relationship to look after you when you need to recoup your spent energy. Once you are able to identify one or two people you can totally trust not to desert you, and the relationships with whom you don't have to invest so much time and effort to maintain, then I think you'll find it easier to become less attached to the church, and broaden your horizons substantially.

... ah, but if only to find those one or two people. Maybe that's one reason you are looking so hard to find a girlfriend in the first place? A vicious circle!

Perhaps some helpful questions, to avoid getting trapped in what could potentially be a vicious circle:
Do you have any brothers or sisters, or family members you can really trust and are close to?
Do you have any really good friendships that are not situational, but rather spanning multiple parts of your life?
Why do you want to have a girlfriend?

Yeah, that's pretty much correct...


My parents are very rarely there for me... my dad is working all the time (sales and field repair work for medical equipment), and my mother works full-time at aforementioned church. I do have a brother, and he's always there for me. Unfortunately, he's a non-verbal autie, and thus he's not exactly good at dispensing advice or consolation when I need it (also, because of the LFA, most of the time my parents have to dedicate to their children goes to him)...


I have one or two friends not connected to the church (though one used to be before he moved away). While I'm still in touch with both, they're also both far away now, and wouldn't be able to help me when I need it (although both have dispensed their relationship advice when my previous relationship started).


I think your comment about wanting someone that's always there for me plays a big part in it, but I'm also someone who craves touch and emotional intimacy to such a great level that a simple friend wouldn't suffice...

It isn't a problem here. If I was to call a church my church it would be Roac in Brixton. The average person is a female between the ages of 18-30. Unfortunately, I am not a church goer.

Well, he may be nonverbal, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he won't try to make you feel better if he can sense that you're unhappy. It just means that advice and consolation will not come verbally. It'll just come in a different way. There are a few threads like this one demonstrating that at least some sort of connection can be established. And sometimes, words really aren't sufficient to express the volume of support given. How close are you to him? And when you say "he's always there for me", do you mean that he will support you, in perhaps at least a very basic level?

Otherwise, I can't think of any other easy or straightforward solutions. This works most effectively if the person is very easily available, and your friends who are far away now may be a little too far removed to do much good, even though they still give advice now and then.

... just wondering, do you have any pets, like a dog?


Your best is good enough, so try not to get so despondent. It's just easier to tackle some issues when others are taken care of first, that's all.

they're all at my house

I don't have an answer for you since I often run into the same problem.

I have been attending the local UU church for the last 6 years. It is not the fact that we don't have younger people in our congregation, they don't attend enough services or stay long enough to really get to know them. Most of the young people in our congregation either are married or have children. We tried to start a yong adults group last winter, it had good attendance at the beginning, but the people in the group dwindled by last summer, so the group was suspended for the time being.

It does seem that many of the young people in my community do attend the evangelical and megachurch communties. I think that this is due to these churches having a message that is geared more toward younger people, and due to the conservative relgious nature of these congregations, people think that attedance at service and events is more compulsory than at a more liberal church.

My friend and I have often laughed about the social state of our community, young people either spend time with their family, focus on their career, or go out and drink. There seems to be very little interest in hobbies and activities.

My advice to you is to ask members of your congregation and your clergy about opportunites in your community for young people. Somebody might know of some organization or activity that you can meet people your age.

Well, when I say "he's there for me", I mean that he is someone that I can come home to and he's there, just doing his own thing... the stability of that is soothing for me in today's chaotic world... In practice, he's very detached, just mindng his own business and never really getting involved with other people that much...


I used to have a cat (was put down back in march because of health conditions related to age). I think I know where you're getting at this, with a pet supposedly being a viable alternative for affection. It didn't really work for me that well... no cat or dog is going to actually return that affection that I want so badly...


I put that up after my previous relationship failed... I tried my best, and yet it still went down the tubes relatively quickly...

Perhaps the social paradigm is different across the pond?

Well, that's what I've occasionally probed outwards with... but to no avail...

This seems a battle between needs -- the need to have acceptance, and the need to pursue your own life free of other people's needs. But giving yourself so much to an organization of people just to have their acceptance is not true acceptance. That's where you need to accept you, because there may be points in your life where no one accepts you out of their own selfish desires and lack of love, both for themselves and others.

Codependency can be a dangerous tactic for gaining acceptance. While it's a natural compensation, it leaves you vulnerable to loss of supply, and it often ends up you attract only those who feed from the supply you provide in order to gain. It's symbiosis, but potentially highly destructive, to you and others. If your church group cannot understand and support your need to pursue your life as you see fit otherwise, they are not a support group, they are very possibly a dirty security blanket more likely to fall apart and make you sick when you need it most than provide you true safety. Love yourself, give to yourself, then give to others.

With this, I speak from experience.



Knowing your limits is necessary. But there is a fine line between knowledge and negative assumption. Many people throw in the towel before they ever truly learn their limits, for example. It took me years before I accepted that I could legitimately not do mathematical calculations like most other people, and that I had dyscalculia. I have my work-arounds; instead of saying "I just can't do any math," I say "I can't do math like that, but I can do this other method". I never give up, in other words. At least, not without a fight. The fewer my concrete limitations, the better.



This is more a discussion on locus of control, and also relates to the aforementioned knowledge of your own limitations. You have control of yourself, even in environments or situations where external elements are not in your control. A personal example: my mom died when I was 18, and we were very close due to all the things we'd been through. I was devastated for myself, but glad she was no longer suffering. I had no control over her death, but I had control of my life--I chose to find peace, to concentrate on everything that was positive, and it was the only thing that helped me at that point. There have been times when I've let negativity consumed me, and I slip often. But I look back to that time to find strength again.

Nothing has to be truly negative in your life, because it's all a matter of perspective. God won't hand anything over to you without a challenge, just like a good parent won't hand everything to their child. Think of it as getting thrown very bad things in order to overcome them and build an artillery with which to combat future problems. That's what wisdom is.



No, not a jackass, just occasionally [seemingly] impervious to other possibilities due to cyclical negative mindset and perspective. Your plan sounds very good to me, though. I really hope it works out for you, and that they can offer the support you need.

I think the last poster made a good point, in that there is a difference between accepting your own limitations and giving up on every effort to expand them or find a work-around. You are too young to write anything off completely. You will face so many more opportunities to test yourself and grow. Be wise about what you choose to test and stretch, but don't assume it can't be done. Between your age and now I have done so many, many things - and done them really well - that I would have said I could never do. Its kind of mind boggling, actually, as I sit here and think about it, and remember my perception of myself at 21. Not in my wildest dreams would I have imagined some of those accomplishments.

As for the main issue, I see your trap, and you've gotten me thinking a lot about how my son's life will play out. Like you, he craves touch and physical closeness (I didn't mix you up with someone else there, did I?). Right now, he gets that from me. But it won't be that long before he'll realize he's too old for getting it all from mom. So what will he do then?

The trap, however, is that 21 is really far too young for a serious relationship, while a serious relationship is the only way your need will really be met. You haven't finished becoming yourself yet. Very few men marry successfully at or anywhwere near your age. You need to focus on living, and pursuing goals, and learning about who you are. And testing your limits. Few people can really sustain a serious relationship until they've finished going through that process, and for many Aspies, that process is more prolonged than for NT's. I'm not quite sure if I'm AS or NT - we've assumed NT with some AS traits - and I didn't finish the process until my early thirties. I got married at 36. For the very first time. With only two relatively serious relationships before dating my husband. And in those years I really became "me," and was able to bring so much more into the relationship and my family. Not everyone travels the same road, of course, and yours may be very different, but, still ... you don't know what God is holding for you. At 21 I would have been dismayed to hear I would marry at 36, but now I wouldn't change any little bit of it. I am so proud of the things I did, and did by myself and for myself.

I'm telling you all that with the hope it can help you keep things in perspective. Society and, in your case, the need for physical closeness, forces us to focus on and desire a goal that may not really be the one we need or want. But failing to meet that goal isn't failure. It is, often, surprisingly, exactly what you needed more.

DW has excellent points coming from a place of experiential wisdom, and I agree on all fronts. But it's made me think of my own relationship in terms of 'readiness'; I'm involved with someone closer to your age, Toad, so I'm experiencing first hand what problems can result, as well as remembering my own issues at that age with my first attempted relationship. The difference for me then was that I was not that interested in my first boyfriend (we still live together and are friends) and it was very experimental.

Now I'm enduring my current boyfriend's flailing about in his attempt to learn about himself and what he wants. I give him lots of space, and if I ever feel he's concentrating too much on our relationship, or that my involvement with him may somehow compromise his growth, I want to leave it behind. That means that if he ever tried to do what you are now, Toad, I'd stop the relationship dead. For him to give himself to the relationship fully in order to gain acceptance would be completely disastrous for him at this point in his life, as as frustrating as it is, I allow him to act selfishly right now.

He and I have a deep, powerful connection between us where we communicated through dreams to start with, before we knew each other, but on the surface we also have a rather solid friendship, too. All of this means that we support each other as friends first, and learn how to deal with different situations in our relationship. The connection, if handed right, aids in growth and learning for both of us. Maybe it'll end, maybe it won't; that transcendental tether keeps us together while we're apart, but to have something like that takes learning yourself, first and foremost, to see what really lies below the surface.

To put it more succinctly: you have a long journey, and impatience is only going to slow you down or send you jogging down the worst path.

Are you trying to turn a perfectly good man into a selfish as*hole? Giving him space is all good, but backing away from it if he tries to feel anything for you is just a little... off-kilter... if a woman tried to do that with me, I would probably break it up... I couldn't stand a relationship with a woman that wouldn't allow me to love her. Sure, if she's unsure as to whether she loves me back, I wouldn't mind (it's not a decision to be made lightly), but one that would refuse the love and devotion I would offer wouldn't be a good relationship for me...


Oh I perfectly agree with being friends first... I couldn't even imagine starting a relationship with a woman that wasn't a friend for some time... even with regards to my previous one, my ex and I are still good friends after the relationship ended...


It's not impatience that drives me, it's the loneliness. It's seeing my parents being affectionate with one another and knowing that I will never be able to experience that. It's watching as people much younger than me hook up rather easily while I don't even know any people my own age anymore. It's seeing all those happy couples at my church, many of them in their 60s and 70s, with no signs of their marriages breaking up, and wishing I could have whatever is making them happy...