Discussing important relationship issues with AS guy

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Also, therange,

Just so you know, I don't "nag and nag and never give up". I just require actual answers to questions I ask rather than being told he doesn't know and given no indication as to when he plans to give me an answer or even think about the things I've asked. I don't "already know what the answer is", as you suggested. If I knew the answer I would not repeat the question. It's not the actual decision that bothers me, it's the complete LACK of decision and the meltdowns when I expect him to take responsibility for making decisions.

Also, change is a constant - in fact, some say, the ONLY constant. This means that sometimes situations and attitudes change. My partner has been known to change his mind about things.

I have had physical health problems (weight gain, anxiety) that have resulted from not expressing my emotions the way I need to, and being frustrated in every attempt to try and gain some clarity from this relationship. This is not related to "nagging and nagging and never giving up". I don't do that, I just try to push for a solid answer, which thus far I have not been able to get. Remember, I asked for advice about how to communicate best with him so that he will respond.

Have you tried suggesting to him that you both sit down at a mutually suitable time to discuss the issues which are concerning you?

I think it'd be wiser to have a third party as was suggested earlier in this thread.

Also I don't think it's such a great idea to assume or generalize someone unless given proof of their personal experience.

Hi again, starygrrl,

Not sure about how this formatting works but here goes:

So people with AS get to not ever give a solid answer. Yes, I understand that my asking him again triggers a meltdown, but I have only learned this over the past 2 weeks and it has become abundantly clear after last weekend when all this went down.





You speak about this as if it happens every day. The reason I posted the message in the first place is because it has happened 2 out of the last 2 weekends, for the first time in consecutive weeks. Previously, as I have mentioned, it has been months apart, and the meltdowns have been caused by different situations. I wanted to avoid future incidents and so I asked for help. I am not holding up the "abuse" card here, because I already understand about Aspie meltdowns (from the outside, at least) and that it takes a great deal of skill and practice to control them.




My partner and I "blame" each other for enough things when we argue. We don't need other people to start throwing blame around at either of us. We have been trying to stop blaming each other for things because we have realised that it is a destructive act and doesn't help anything at all. I am grown up enough to understand and accept when something is my responsibility, and also take responsibility for changing it if I need to. My partner is also willing to do this, but he doesn't know how.



This is why I am asking for help - to try and find out what situation I am supposed to "provide".



That is absolute crap. I clean the house, wash the dishes, shop for and cook the food, make him coffee every morning, sometimes pack his lunch, collect the mail, love him, support him, ask about his day, wash and iron his shirts, and I WORK TWO JOBS. He goes to work, comes home and sits at his computer for two hours while I cook dinner. Then I serve dinner, he eats it (we were eating in front of the TV but i've been serving at the dinner table this week) then goes back to his computer. I go to bed alone at 11.30pm, he comes to bed between 1 and 3 am, wakes up at 8.30 and complains that he's tired. The environment I "provide" for him should be "provided" by BOTH OF US. I am not "inherently hostile" to him at all. He sure doesn't think that.


.

You CAN learn, can't you?

For instance:
I once suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder (NOT formally diagnosed, but does explain much of my late teens and early 20's). This does not mean that I will never be able to sustain anything because i'm not capable of it. It just means I have more difficulty than others learning how. I learned how - I have 2 uni degrees. I learned to make a relationship last more than 3 months. I learned that drugs and alcohol are really bad for me and I will die if I do them. I have never been suicidal or a self-harmer. I learned that anger outbursts are not sustainable behaviour and are very ineffective in getting things done.




Well, I must state that this is somewhat true, considering I was abandoned on numerous occasions as a child. This has resulted in serious jealousy issues in adulthood, which I have worked through and am continuing to maintain against.



This was true of me in my teens and early 20's. Now it is no longer an issue.




This was true for me until I learned through therapy who my real self actually is. Now I love who I am and what I do, and try to live as authentically as possible in my job and every day life.



Also through my teens and early 20's, did I partake in these particular "negative" personality traits. I did not have eating disorders or binge eat, did not have a license, but the others are things that gradually left my life as I approached 30.



Nope, sorry, never.



Also never, except when withdrawing from amphetamines. If you ask anyone withdrawing from amphetamines if they experienced this, they will respond in the positive.


Not since I grew up.



Those either.





WTF???
Clearly you who purports to know me has no idea...




This is why I suggested you look at individuals as exactly what they are - INDIVIDUALS, not "a diagnosis".



And if you read my input to these posts, nor have I blamed him for having meltdowns.





I am not asking for your sympathy or your approval. Just your constructive advice, as opposed to *your* verbal assault (that you so adamantly claim that I have given him, when I have been very careful to word things and speak to him in such a way that is non-confrontational).




It also takes hard work and a willingness to address issues from the person who is suffering the meltdowns.



Ok, how am I supposed to magically "know" what causes a meltdown if it's never happened in that context before? Am I supposed to be psychic?

I have, a number of times, given him a time frame of a couple of days to a week to answer my questions. He does nothing.



"Keep triggering them" - here you go again!

Please do me a favour, starygrrl. Just go through all the posts and ONLY READ MY INPUT. Disregard other people's opinions while you read, and try not to make assumptions about me based on what strangers have told you. Just read what I wrote. You will see that I'm a mostly level-headed and non-confrontational. In fact, I intensely dislike conflict and would like to find a way to resolve these issues where conflict is not a contributing factor.

Best regards,

ntchick.

Sorry to over-generalize and jump to conclusions. If you are thinking I was burned and manipulated on a few occasions by folks with borderline you are correct.

But in addition to the third party, which i suggest individual therapy as well, it might be a good idea to take a different approach.

My partner has ADHD, sometimes he cannot answer things in the moment and tends to prefer to answer big life issues in writing. It allows him to get his thoughts out and process things in a constructive manner, basically it allows him a degree of nuance. From what I understand, some guys with AS are the same ways, processing things in the moment, especially big issues, can be very difficult. It also allows for emotional processing to be better managed and takes away some of the potential conflict that may exist. I know this may sound cold, but it has worked in alot of relationships with people who have ASD and ADHD, largely because it allows time for processing certian information in a constructive manner, without the pressure of the partner being there in the flesh.

My boyfriend and I also do some journaling when there is important issues to be worked out.

Have you thought about dealing with these issues in a series of written pieces? I know it sounds odd, but I only mention it because it has some success. The thing is when certain forms of communication are not meeting with success, it is a good idea to try forms which are less emotionally demanding and in the moment. From what it sounds like, the communication fault he is having does have to do with the fact he probably has to think over issues longer and in a deliberative fashion. My boyfriend is like this, big issues I usually have to give him time to think things over.

Regarding the "I don't know" issue: perhaps he genuinely doesn't know the answers to your questions. Could you try, rather than pressing him for an answer, asking him if he could find an answer given some time, and perhaps ask him for an estimate of how much time he'll need to think about it?

No I'm not. He is responsible for his actions insofar as he is in control of those actions. However severe meltdowns CAN lead to loss of control. If he is severely disturbed by something and no longer thinking and acting rationally then I don't think he's totally to blame for his actions. This is NOT to say that she is responsible either. Not everything is somebody's fault - despite what the lawyers may tell you, sometimes s**t just happens. Trying to stop it from happening again is important, but does throwing inappropriate blame around really help with this?

What I am saying is that, until something can be done to reduce the severity of these outbursts, it is best to avoid the triggers as best you can and also approach the whole situation with sympathy rather than blame. If he is already feeling guilty and is afraid that she will leave, his mental health is going to get a whole lot worse if she does go, and he may never be able to tackle these issues constructively. At the moment what he really needs is support. Which is not to say that bad behaviour should be ignored - it still needs pointing out when things are wrong, but in a way that allows him to deal with it rather than adding to the guilt and the pressure. Yes, this is very difficult. Starygrrl's note-writing suggestion is a very good one for handling this sort of problem.

As to whether it will be possible to completely stop these meltdowns, who knows? Everyone is different. To say that it is always possible and that basically he's just being silly and needs to stop is naive and patronising. Your own personal experience cannot be applied universally.


He is not necessary in control of these things, or consciously making those decisions. I suspect that he is well aware of the damage he is doing, but finds himself unable to stop. The hurt and the guilt he is feeling then add to the pressure: a classic downward spiral. Your observations apply to NT and possibly mild AS behaviour, but there is a point beyond which this no longer applies. Would you seriously consider telling a bi-polar patient to calm down, tell the truth and stop being melodramatic? And if you did, would you expect it to work??


Perhaps the reason she hasn't stated anything about this is because it isn't relevant. The fact that she has not stated this does not mean that it does or does not happen. Do pink elephants exist unless I specifically tell you that they don't?

****************************************************************

Who Am I makes a really good point. Given the literal approach Aspies have to things, "I don't know" is an answer that may not lead to the follow-up thinking that she's expecting. "I'd like you to think about it." is a good follow up line. If reassurance is needed, "You can say what you like, or we can bounce ideas around. No need for a magic solution!". Or ask him to write some points down.

Remember he is already feeling overloaded. You are more likely to get answers by playing down the importance of the questions. If you say it doesn't matter at all and you don't care what the answer is, you'll probably get a really well thought-out response within hours or even minutes, and without drama. AS can be really contradictory like this. I agree you shouldn't have to analyse his behaviour and modify yours to suit all of the time, but for now it might help, while you work on making things better (with a Counsellor).

But it IS something that can happen, whether you like it or not, so it's something that can and should "be seen as something that can happen". How can you deny that? Whether it is desirable or acceptable is another matter - it happens nonetheless. Sometimes people with problems lose the plot in a big way. If they're not really in control, whose fault is that? No-ones. So why blame them? All this does is increase the guilt and the pressure that led them to melt down in the first place. Yes, it needs sorting out. But sometimes people in these situations are incapable of doing this for themselves, so they need help and support, both from professionals and also from partners, friends and family. Shooting them down when they're already at their lowest will not help.

There is a very big gap between those who are nasty for fun and those who lose control and regret it deeply.

Scared, vulnerable people are more likely to lash out when they feel threatened. This is natural, automatic defensive behaviour. Just ask anyone who has tried to get an injured cat into a cat basket! The violence is counter-productive and irrational, but it needs tackling by addressing the fundamental issues, not just by punishing the symptoms. You wouldn't shout at the clawing cat, would you? It is hurt and scared and can't explain, and fighting (it thinks) to stay alive and not get trapped in a box. Apply that logic to the Aspie boyfriend here and see if it makes more sense.

@sociable_hermit - I find it really irritating that you either don't read my entire post, or read it selectively and then mis-characterize what I've written in order to support your own personal world view. As to your quote below:

"As to whether it will be possible to completely stop these meltdowns, who knows? Everyone is different. To say that it is always possible and that basically he's just being silly and needs to stop is naive and patronising. Your own personal experience cannot be applied universally."

Naive and patronising? I'm being patronizing by daring to suggest that there are aspects of an Aspie's behavior over which he/she has control? I'm suggesting that Aspie's can - and should be - just as responsible for their behavior as any NT? That's patronizing? Because I think suggesting that they're helpless and out-of-control of their own behavior is incredibly patronizing, and a major disservice to any Aspie who's hoping to have a successful relationship - either with an NT or another Aspie. I never suggested that the man in question is being "silly" - not one time. I suggested he needs to learn some coping skills in order to deal better with the woman he lives with. It is his choice whether he wants to do what he can to make his relationship better - or not.

Here's a little nugget of truth: there are behavioral changes Aspies can make to improve their chances of having a successful intimate relationship. Learning how to cope with stress, communicate, negotiate, and drawing a line at engaging in abusive behavior with loved ones are just a few examples of those behavioral changes. You can either accept that truth, or not. Unfortunately, people who endorse your point of view are increasing their odds of spending the rest of their lives without a significant other, because they'll have chased away anyone willing to love them by engaging in unnecessary, abusive behavior. Way to go.

Meltdowns are difficult. I fight their approach tooth and nail, but often lose the ability to articulate my thoughts during that phase... making communication difficult with those around me to warn them or try to change the situation. During a meltdown, all filters are lost so there are times when my words are raw, poorly chosen, and do not accurately reflect my thoughts. There is a decided loss of control during those periods simply due to that impairment. These are my realizations, and something I must accept about myself - however, I can change how I approach those scenarios in the future, I can choose to learn from what has happened. It is my responsibility to reflect and act during those times when I am best able to work and to the greatest effect. There is no excuse for abusive behavior, but one has to keep in mind that provoking that response in another person who is susceptible to such things (especially knowingly) is abuse in and of itself.


M.

I have been having issues with my bf for a year with his answers always being "I don't know" and such. He would also get very angry at me for pushing the issues. We weren't aware that he was AS (actually just figured out that he probably is), but we did find ways to handle it.

The first was for me to stay calm, using a very low tone, and picking an unstressful time to bring it up. I spent a LOT of time, many many conversations, explaining what the burden of saying "I don't know" puts on me. I also came up with other scenarios in his life that he could relate to and asked how he would feel if my answer was always "I don't know." It seemed to help.

We have actually gotten to a place where he still says I don't know occassionally, and that means I just need to make a decision and live with it. He has also agreed not to hold these choices against me, since he added no input.

When he did get angry and yell, I extremely firmly told him that would be the LAST time and I will NOT put up with it again. He hasn't.

He may have some problems, but with the right environment, I think they can learn to react better-- and if they really want to, they can learn to state an opinion and "act" engaged in the conversation. It's not all about them-- and I don't believe anyone should let them believe that.

Michelle

What I find objectionable is your absolute black or white world view, and the refusal to accept that things must be viewed in context and may change over time. I have not said that I condone abusive behaviour, I do not. I can however sympathise with those who are in a position where they need help to stop being abusive. Your assertion that EVERYONE can do this and it will ALWAYS be successful and it is ENTIRELY up to them is misleading, because it is so absolute. Different people will be able to use the tools you mention to differing degrees, and with varying rates of success. They may not be able to initiate the process, either. There is nothing wrong with saying that there are "aspects of an Aspie's behavior over which he/she has control". However you state that this is ALWAYS the case, and I don't think that's true. You then misquote me as saying that all Aspies are "helpless and out-of-control" which is crap - some Aspies are out of control, some of the time, and the fact that they need help sometimes does not necessarily make them helpless.

There are behavioral changes Aspies can ATTEMPT to make to improve their chances of having a successful intimate relationship, but there is no guarantee that the person involved will be capable of seeing them through, and no guarantee that they will succeed. They're still worth trying, though. The one thing that will greatly increase the chances of success is support from a partner, which is why I think throwing all of your toys out of the pram and making the AS partner feel even more guilty and pressured than they already are, and at greater risk of losing the one person they love, is possibly the worst thing that could be done. In time they might be able to understand all of the huirt they have caused, and deal with it properly, but to leap straight in with all that negativity is just going to have the opposite effect. They will become more anxious, more depressed, more isolated, and further out of reach from treatment. Pile on the pressure at the outset and you're more likely to see a suicide than a happy compromise.

You seem to think that meltdowns etc. are conscious choices, whereas I suspect a lot of it is subconscious. Using words like "unnecessary" simply show that you think it's optional - it's nothing more than someone being naughty, and if you tell them off it will stop. That's why I used the word 'silly' - because it's the sort of word a patronising parent would use to a small child. "Oh stop it now, don't be silly!". If it were that easy, don't you think everybody would just stop?

You then state that those who endorse my point of view are "increasing their odds of spending the rest of their lives without a significant other, because they'll have chased away anyone willing to love them by engaging in unnecessary, abusive behavior". Err... they wouldn't be endorsing my point of view, then, would they? I am not saying that abusive behaviour is acceptable and should be left unchecked. I am saying that sometimes tackling it requires intervention, very carefully in the initial stages, and that not all 'cures' will work for all people. There is an irony here, in that the better you are feeling, the easier it is to accept that there are problems and make changes. Conversely people who are really on the edge will find it almost impossible to cope with knowing the things they really need to know in order to change. The reality check needs to be very slow and careful, otherwise (in the initial stages) it can be counter-productive. Going in with all guns blazing could be even worse than saying nothing and letting them continue as they were.

It may be possible to completely change things for the better. It may be possible to achieve enough that a relationship is now manageable but still difficult sometimes. Or it may be that the behavioural problems are too deep to shift, in which case it has to be accepted that that particular person will always need a lot of space and will probably never have a normal relationship. And if you've tried everything, as a couple, and it hasn't worked out, then that's the situation you're left with.

@sociable_hermit - I won't waste my time with additional responses to you. I can't get past your filter, and frankly, I'm not interested in trying any further.

@The people who are bothered by constant "I don't know"s: if you were being asked a lot of questions that you didn't have answers to, how would you word your response in order to avoid angering the person asking the questions?

Another note: for me personally, when I say "I don't know" it can have a couple of meanings besides "I don't know." It can also mean

1. I cannot formulate words for my answer.

2. I am too overwhelmed to talk right now, but because I think fairly highly of you, I am giving you this response so that you won't feel ignored.

In the case of number 2, if I'm pushed further, it will lead to meltdowns very quickly.

I think you are right. I have been much more successful by letting him know in advance that I wanted to talk about something later in the day and asking him to think about the topic. Sometimes he still doesn't have an answer, but if I can keep in my mind that he is doing the absolute best he can and is putting forth effort, I no longer get as frustrated.

On the flip side, he acknowledges that it is frustrating to not get answers to questions and appreciates being given some time to try to think about them on his own, while he is alone.

I don't know if that's "typical," but it has sure made life around our house much better.