How can a girl tell if you are "looking" for a gir

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Overall, I think that where we're having issues is that I don't see myself as putting a woman on a pedestal... I just impose perfectionist standards upon myself, because if i screw up once, i'm out... Or at least that has a good chance of happening. Sure, they might forgive me, such that I can still talk to them without them being furious at me, but the relationship will be over. I'm not rich or good-looking; I'm more of a creepy loser, so I absolutely can't **** up...

Yeah I know, I was just trying to make analogy... you know how that goes. I know the coffee date idea doesn't work for me because I hate coffee.

Sometimes I feel like that might be my only option. I've never met a woman that liked me right off the bat. I'm too creepy to be liked as it is. Sure, after people get to know me, they see that the creepiness is surface-level only and that underneath is a kind and loving person, but the random stranger is not going to look past that surface creepiness at all, nor should they ever be expected to...


That's something that being friends first actually helps with. By building the relationship on a strong foundation of friendship, the relationship can blow over and yet the friendship will still be there. A relationship built on nothing will quickly be reduced back to nothing. That's why I don't ask strangers out.


Well, I've been able to train myself to not invest anything until there has been an acceptance, so a mere rejection doesn't phase me much (at least now; back when I was 14 I got rejected and was suicidal on and off for 3 years because of it)... But once I've been accepted, I can't help but dive into it... I need to feel that affection, that feeling that I know I am loved. I crave it so much that I would do almost anything to feel that way again...

And therein lies probably the core of your trouble. Love takes time to build. The gap between accepting you for another date and loving you is very wide indeed. Nobody is going to love you on the second date.

But I suspect you knew this, and it's why you go to such great lengths to build a friendship first. Then you know the affection is there. And it is. But the giant catch is that it's friendship affection, friendship love. Friends can have great affection for each other and love each other but it isn't romantic. From your various posts I have gotten the feeling that many women have indeed felt affection for you after you became friends with them. Right at this minute, two of them may be having coffee together and saying, "I just love ToadofSteel. I hope he gets a girlfriend soon because he looks so depressed." That's a loving thing for a friend to say. But it isn't in love with you in a romantic way. Which is the problem with working so hard to establish a non-romantic friendship. Once you succeed at that, you have gotten somebody to love you but she loves you...as a friend, the same way she loves her best girlfriend who is currently having coffee with her and discussing how great it would be if you got a girlfriend.

On the other hand, if you try to go from a succesful date to "love me NOW, I NEED IT" you of course scare a woman off (nobody says that- but it's a vibe). It tells a woman that if she gets in a relationship with you and it goes wrong, you will do anything to keep her...including keeping her in a basement dungeon if certain movies can be believed.


The middle road is to go on dates with women as a way to get to know them and not try so hard. It's a date, not the Bataan Death March. If a woman isn't interested even after what seem like a handful of succesful dates, this does not mean you are a Bad Person. It means you are not compatible. People carry around unconscious needs deep within themselves and if you don't fulfill whatever her unconscious need is, she won't fall in love. And that's ok. You have deep unconscious needs too. So you can't force this by assuming you are in love with any woman who agrees to a second or even 3rd date. And you can't beat yourself up by assuming that any woman who agrees to a 3rd or even 4th date has fallen in love with you and that if she hasn't that means you are Bad and Unloveable. Many, many dates are gone on before you actually fall in love. But trying to be friends first aborts that process. Sound and I are definately in agreement on this issue.

So? That is true of everyone, except for the exceptional few who are extremely good looking and charismatic. It should not stop an NT, it should not stop an introvert, it should it stop you.
As for the pedestal thing, alright, we'll leave that alone.


1) Why would they be furious at you? Attempting a date, nor being a doofus, is a crime or insult. You're imagining unrealistic scenarios.
2) There's two parts of being the self-styled creepy loser.
a) your belief that you are one, and
b) not doing things to ameliorate aspects of creepitude.
Both of those aspects can be addressed. You are not intrinsically creepy. We can figure out the things that go wrong, and adjust them.
3) I think you've probably seen a couple of examples of non-rich, non-attractive guys having a solid relationship, or even being able to get some occasional dates. This whole thing is a complicated topic, no doubt, but improvements and success can be had. Others have done it, why shouldn't you? What's so special about you that it's out of the question?
4) making a mistake or two does not mean the end of the date, nor the end of a friendship. What ends them is by responding badly, recoiling in over-the-top apology, avoiding contact, feeling dejected. Similar to what Janissy described.


Ice cream, then.
"Hey, I feel like getting some ice cream! Want to come with?"
"Uhh, I dunno..."
"What, you don't like ice cream!? You're crazy. They lock up people like you" *goofy astounded look*
And she laughs, and you ask again, and maybe she accepts. Or not. Either way you got a laugh and a good back&forth.


Then lets focus on that topic sometime, and see what we can do to assist decreasing that creepy effect.
Either way, buying stuff, bending over backwards, catering to her, etc, is still not a viable option, not alone. It has it's place in moving things up, prompting reactions, making an opportunity from nothing, but it's just very specific.


We're starting to go in circles here.
As I mentioned, there's an element where being upbeat, friendly, etc, is great. However, if you continue to let it get in the way of connecting with new women, then you're not going to see any changes. You can go ahead and try to become friends first. Just hope you're fine with it staying that way.

Compulsory disclaimer: Yes, folks, I know that there are plenty of people who move from friendship first into a relationship. I'm simply talking about what tends to help most. Friendship first does not help most, not by a longshot. Anyways, that's what he's been doing, and results have not been forthcoming.


I hear ya.

Just don't fool yourself: Until she says she loves you, you can't assume she loves you. Relationships, investment, and devotion come gradually. Having a girlfriend is good, but it will take time until it has all the qualities you seem to want. As you crave those things, you run the risk of souring the relationship (I've done that). So I suggest managing your expectations, and looking for a way to crave that sense less.

My running theory on this kind of thing is that the craving tends to get offset by satisfaction with your self, and life. Therefore, my usual self-improvement-work-to-be-awesome spiel. You've heard that before, I think.

Okay then. How would you suggest I get to know a woman in such a way that a relationship would be possible?

So in other words, I am a creep... I figured that part out already...

Well, obviously if we're not compatible, i can't do anything about that. But that begs the question: is there anyone out there that I would be compatible with?

And you can't beat yourself up by assuming that any woman who agrees to a 3rd or even 4th date has fallen in love with you and that if she hasn't that means you are Bad and Unloveable. Many, many dates are gone on before you actually fall in love.[/quote]How do I know when the time is right, then? I don't know how to act at any given point in the relationship.

If you really think this is an important point to hit, then by all means hit it. I'm just saying that I don't see myself as doing that... but it wouldnt be the first time i've been wrong about myself...

If I'm just imagining scenarios, what would they actually do if I did something like that?

Okay, lets say for the sake of argument she accepts. Then what?

yeah I have. I just don't understand... if I keep all my love for myself, how am I supposed to be able to be a loving partner for a woman?

[/quote]

You don't know in advance. But when you have actually fallen in love (as opposed to simply being astounded that a woman wants to go out with you 7 times consecutively), your hormones will tell you. It's what hormones do best.

Wow, this thread got really dense - I can't get through all of it, so, in response to the original question: be honest if you like a girl and tell her. Tell her you think she's beautiful, or you like something about her that may have caught your eye, like her haircut or outfit. Some girls, like me, just don't pick up on hints and need it spelled out.

What's confusing to me is that this whole scenario sounds exactly like trying to make any other friend, just one-on-one instead of in the group. So to me you're basically saying, don't make friends with her, instead make friends with her. Not to mention making friends one-on-one is harder because you can't take a back seat and just observe the conversation... you're forced to be active 100% of the time, either talking or listening.

I can't trust my hormones. They keep trying to tell me to get into the pants of every woman I encounter. Maybe that would work if I was a Don Juan, but I'm not. I'm a creep, and going around trying to get laid would just make me even creepier. Not to mention that casual sex doesn't satisfy my greater need to feel loved and appreciated. So yes, I have to completely control my sex drive, lest it control me...

If you do something that weirds em out, then they usually tend to get quiet, squirm a bit, look right and left, look down... generally look uncomfortable. Usually people don't fly off the handle though. Sometimes, a more forward girl might ask what you mean by 'blah blah blah,' with a somewhat sharp tone, and piqued eyebrow. Or say "ew" or some other demeaning thing, at worst. Really, it's not any worse than that. And one instance of such does not kill everything, not by a longshot. Not unless your response kills it. Both people need to 'sign off' on that, so to speak.

So... First impression might make it seem like those slip ups are the end of the world, or certainly the end of the date. However, as one get's more time under their belt jiving back & forth, flirting, practicing, and gets a bit more comfortable, you can use those 'ugly' moments. You can turn it around into something funny, or challenge them right back, and more. What guys tend to want to automatically do in such a situation is to kinda shrink back, thinking "oh no, I screwed up," and it gets written all over your face and body language.

But this is badwrong. That's one of the indicators of low confidence. If you instead manage to find a way to bull through it with a grin on your face, a humorous follow-up, or a provocative little mischievous jab instead, you can potentially carry the moment back into a positive frame. People tend to follow one-another, take cues from each other. If she says something aggressive after you do something awkward, your first impression is flinch at it, right? You're following her cue. Heck, you might not have even done anything awkward. But what if you don't flinch, and instead turn the attitude back her way? She's going to respond to that somehow, and it could turn out any number of ways, both good and not so good, but at least in the end result, you didn't look weak-willed and easily cowed.

This is just a couple hypothetical examples. But the point is that you can always take constructive steps to steer the vibe. Even among little gaffes and foibles.

So try to remember, if a girl gives you s**t that's not all that deserved, or isn't a big deal, give her s**t right back. Don't recoil, apologize, etc. Save those for when it's deserved.

Well, then the skies the limit... The specifics aren't so important as the big picture.

For one, in the big picture you want to be interacting enough that you two both become comfortable with each other, preferably up to the point where you feel comfortable touching each other. Sounds sorta stupid, but bare with me. Like a hand on a shoulder, or doing silly games with your hands, etc. Touch is powerful. It helps people feel far more at-ease with others for some reason. There's lots of articles out there on this phenomenon. One of the biggest mistakes us introverted guys make is our reluctance or fear of touching a girl. We get all nervous. But what we oughta be doing is finding any excuse whatsoever to make any kind of innocuous or deliberate physical contact. Anything at all, even if it's just bumping into her. It's crazy weird how powerful touch is. So that's one priority.

Another priority is lots of feelings. Especially fun. If you're talking about philosophy, talking calmly for like a half hour, that's interesting and all, but it's not very emotionally stimulating. It's not thrilling. It's not funny. when conversation gets dry, and bland, you're in trouble. So it's good to have some fun conversation threads ready in your mind, or have a funny story of something you experienced. Telling stories is great, especially if you can get to be a good, evocative storyteller. Lots of fun listening to a good storyteller.

Another priority is to try and nudge in the sexual undercurrent. It does not need to be overt or direct, it does not need to be creepy, it can be subtle and innocent even. But anything to make it very personal. Little things like leaning in close, tickling(..risky move though), holding hands, lots of eye contact, etc etc. These sorts of things are really important. They can be tough to work in, and yeah, there's an art to it, but it gets learned through practice. This part is the single biggest slice of the concept of ROMANCE. Nothing is more important to romance than sexual tension. NOTHING. Without it, it's just friendship, not romance.

One more priority is VALUES. This can wait until some other time, it does not NEED to be in the first date, but it'll come up in the second or third for sure. She will want to know what your values are, what your ideals are, what you feel is important in life. The things that drive you, that give your life purpose. The things she can be interested in, or impressed with. Not concrete things usually, like "computers" or whatever, more like ideals, like "family unity" or "excelling at what you do". Stuff like that. So you work at such and such... So what? Where are you GOING with life? This sort of stuff gives a deeper look into a person than dry, concrete factoids. Talking about hobbies isn't so terrible, but it's not especially good either. Think of talking about hobbies as a last resort. Go for the esoteric stuff instead. Hopefully stuff she can RELATE WITH.

Here's something that's NOT a priority: Getting to know her background, and her getting to know yours, and other random factoids, favorite color favorite food, family background, blah blah blah. These are SO not important. You can talk about this mundane crap ANY time. You probably will on your second date, no problem. But for now, on a first date, the only thing that's important is CHEMISTRY. Good feelings, good times, good memories, and that extra-personal intimate, undercurrent.

So there ya go... there's no way to tell you what exactly to do... But looking at it from this perspective, by seeing what your day's actions will include, well, that's a lot to put on your plate. If you can devise ways to hit each of those priorities, you will probably both have a good, fulfilling date.

It's a lot to digest, I know. =op
Loving yourself does not preclude loving others. Affection is not a finite amount, it is infinite. it is possible to love yourself right now as much as you love others.... and still love others just as much as you do now.
As a matter of fact, it's possible to love others more than you do now, and also love yourself. It is not a pie to be rationed. It is a goblet of plenty.

...Oooh... I'm getting dangerously cheesy here.

But if I give her s**t, won't she leave me for a guy that won't?

Well I had already figured that part out. But I can't just go in and put my arm around her, now can I? (as much as I would want to lol...)

Yeah, it is... and I'm too tired right now to argue my points on all of that. Maybe some other time...

My success level is low, but in my experience it is quite the opposite. Whenever I lose my temper and give a girl s**t she seems to stick around me until I say something nice.

I tried it once with a girl I'd talked to before, and it didn't go as badly as I thought it would. It didn't lead anywhere, but she wasn't freaked out like I would have thought, either. Give it a shot, if she complains, quit.

Not necessarily. Actually, in many ways, she (or anyone, actually) may kinda enjoy it.
That does seem quite the oddity, doesn't it? Quite counter intuitive. It's another complicated thing, unfortunately, something I've always been not so good at.

Perhaps you know someone in your life who's keen on teasing people. "Good natured" teasing, as I'm sure they'd call it. Usually those folks don't lack for friends, because usually they moderate it somewhat. They talk s**t to people, give little put-downs, put people off-balance(so-to-speak), but usually have a smile on their face while doing it. Often times this folks can be kinda humorous people to be around too. Not always, but often.

Are they angry? No. Are they malicious? Not generally, but some take it too far. Does everyone like them? No, everyone has a different palate for such behavior, different boundaries of what's okay. However, many of them are popular nonetheless. So why in the heck would they be popular, if so many of them consistently test others' limits? When one can look at their words and actions, and rightly point out that 'that person's kinda a dick,' why should they have so many friends, so often?

Well, I think the word 'palette' is a good one because it points to another handy analogy.
Some people put a lot of pepper on their food, or salt, or chilli peppers, or vinegar. Some people like really spicy food that'd make us retch.
And yet, generally, few people like pepper or salt or chilli powder or vinegar on their own. A glass of vinegar, a spoon full of salt, pepper, bite into a habenero? Gross, yikes.
...But it can mix well with other flavors. Though everyone's palette is different, some amount of salt, pepper, vinegar, whatever is good (or great) on an overwhelming variety of base tastes.

Emotions work the same way. Things like playful teasing, 'giving someone a hard time,' stuff like that is the equivalent. If you're nothing but nice all the time, that's very bland.... Or, you could also interpret it as syrupy sweet all the damn time, sugar overload. I wouldn't want to eat like that all the time, and I wouldn't want to interact with someone who's only ever like that.

And actually, that's just one element to the dynamic.

Let's say you mention, ">I collect spores, molds, and fungus," and a girl c lowns on you right then and there, "Ew, that is the nerdiest, creepiest thing I've ever heard!" It's easy for us introverts(or more accurately, us LSE folks) to have the first gut reaction to respond by looking down and seeming embarrassed, and other little queues that asserts/confirms/"signs-off on" the assertion that you're a creepy nerd, and that you're a pushover who's self-conscious, a spineless doormat. Or, more accurately, it contributes a (big) piece to the larger sum of her impression of you. It's generally a huge turn-off. That's a bad reaction, similar to what Janissy was getting at.

Imagine a different reaction, though, where you look back at her with a face that reads, 'screw you,' and reply, "Uh huh. And you'd fit great in that collection.".... Pause a beat, and then smirk wryly, to offset the negativity. The dynamic has totally changed. Depending on the person, it could get accepted with any number of interpretations, but at least it illustrates that you wont take unnecessary s**t from people, and that you have faith in yourself and your hobby. Heck, it might even make her laugh. Just about anything that provokes a laugh or smile is great, but the big deal here is that she sent a jab at you, and you're still standing.

This is a stereotype, of course, but: women like that. Heck, people like that. I reassert: Aptitude with talking with women = aptitude with people.

But either way, no, you don't want to be just nice all the time. That's dry and boring. Gotta spice it up, that usually makes for better times, more vivid memories, more emotions, etc.

Does it mean you should be a dick? No. Absolutely not. To interpret this as 'you need to be a dick' is annoyingly binary thinking. It's taking the idea past the extreme, and is not what I'm saying. All of this is carefully moderated, just like salt on your food. It takes a bit to get used to and learn, for some(like me-I still mostly suck at this), but with practice you will get it.

It's also worth noting that in this spectrum of 'add-on emotions,' anger has no place. Never react with anger, at anything. It's not a 'spice,' like the others, that's more like sprinkling in dog doo. So yeah, always avoid that. Feeling anger is normal and fine, acting on it isn't. But you probably knew that.

Personally, as I learned to get calibrated with all this emotional stuff, I had a hard time finding the right balance. One month, a girl might give a little put-down that made me recoil in self-consciousness. Next month, as I refused to let myself react that way, I accidentally got angry in response to a jab. Kinda like a pendulum swinging too far right or left, trying to get to the middle. So that's part of why I mention avoiding anger.
*shrug* It's tough business.

Absolutely correct, you can't just up & do that. There's a graduation going on here, a gradient, a ramp, a progression.
Progress in what? COMFORT. Trust.

A guy putting his arms around a lady(or, really, any physical/non-physical action at all) has a specific place somewhere on that graduation, a graduation in which you're starting out at, or near, the bottom. At any given point on that progression, something new is 'legal,' as well as anything prior. If you attempt to do/say something past where you are in the progression, you'll get a negative reaction. Bring a girl you don't know flowers, putting your arm around her when she's still trying to make sure you're safe to be around, leaning in to kiss, and she leans away, asking her a question that she feels is too personal.... All these represent things that would be okay to do, except you did it too early, you did not earn enough trust and comfort.

This is part of why I make a big deal about what are good date ideas and what aren't. Because many 'classic' date ideas, like going out to a fancy restaurant, are not conducive to comfort. Meaning you progress far slower, and have more time and opportunity to make a mis-step, and she doesn't trust you enough or isn't comfortable enough to let it 'roll off her back,' let it slide, or ignore it.
In contrast, you could've gone out to something that's very easy for you both to feel at-ease, and fosters getting comfortable with each other faster. So now you could go and make that same mis-step as the other situation, after the same amount time, but this time she let's it slide because she trusts you more, she's farther into understanding the real you, she has better context to ignore the stupid little glitches we make.

Anyways, getting back to touching, specifically, an example progression could be such:
When you first meet up you could ask for her hand and raise it while making a mock-bow (Note: totally informal, it's only a joke, actual bowing and formalities are stupid and badwrong... And don't kiss her hand, it usually doesn't go over well).
With that, you could immediately turn around and run off to the car or whatever, "come on!" while holding her hand.
Later she makes a joke or something, and while you laugh, you give a light back-hand slap to her arm(a very innocuous and neutral spot).
Later, you tap her on the arm or shoulder, or something, and motion to lean in as you gossip about something, or whatever.
Later you ask for her hand again, and start playing one of those little hand-games like thumb-war.
Later you put your hand on her shoulder while talking excitedly about something you're passionate about.
Later, while you're telling a story and making grand and animated gesticulations with your arms, you role-play a person in the story, who grabs her by the shoulder and says something goofy or whatever.
Later, while you're in a big crowd, someone's trying to get past you, and you say "oop, hold on a sec,' place your hand in the small of her back and gently nudge/guide her off to the side cuz she's blocking the 'flow of traffic,' and needs to get out of the way (I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE DO THAT!).
Later, you're leaning over the rails at the water front, and leaning against each other.
And then you're arm locked.
And then you're holding hands,
Later, you're sitting at the table, and she looks off to the side, and you say, "wait, right there..." and with only one hand, with two fingers gently beneath her chin, you tilt her at just the right angle, and say "...wow, you were really beautiful right there."
Later... Well, jeez at that point,things start going 'non-linear,' so to speak.

The point of that illustration was a painfully slow, but relatively inclusive progression starting with little innocuous things, then somewhat more personal things, then things that aren't okay with strangers, then deliberate things, etc etc. Most folks are okay with skipping a step here or there. But you can't make drastic leaps.
Example, you don't touch nearly at all throughout the date. When you're in the theater, you try to put your arm around her. BZZZT! Wrong! She gives you a withering look and pushes off the offending arm. You skipped steps.

If, as you read her, it seems like she wants to go faster, wants more, then yeah, skip steps, absolutely. Go straight to holding her hand, go straight to guiding her by the small of her back. But that's a risk. I'm lousy at reading this sort of thing, I guess that's the AS though. I have improved on that, though...


No problem, it's possible I'm wrong on some things. I'll be here.

btw, NorthEastern, are you reading this stuff? This is good info for you.

Well I do have experience in ripping on people, if that's what you're talking about... my family is practically a sitcom these days... but I can't really feel comfortable enough to do that kind of stuff until I know that whoever I'm ripping on isn't going to leave me because I engage in such behaviors. I did a little bit of that with my ex towards the end, but not to the level that I do with my family (who I know is never going to leave me, and thus I am 100% comfortable around)...

As for the touching stuff, I am well aware of the consequences of progressing too quickly. But then I feel as though I am proceeding too slowly in many cases, and then I end up asking whether its okay to do X (which I know is not what I'm supposed to do, but I have no idea if I don't ask)...

That's great then that you're at least comfortable with ripping on friends & whatnot. Personally, I have zero background in that, so when I get in with a group of guys who's humor style is like that, I have a real hard time keeping up. ><

As for doing it around new women, the boundaries are not so different than the boundaries with men you've just met, for instance. As long as you're smiling, and looking them in the eye when you joke, it's pretty obvious that you just want to have a good time. If you go too far with it and she looks hurt or reponds with a sense of dejection, then you apologize with a smile (...not a manic, panicked apology, mind you... something I'd have found myself pulled toward. Bad.).
On the other hand, if a woman responds with some anger or annoyance, sometimes backing off makes things worse. The real problem there is that they need to loosen up. This isn't always true, of course, some women are just hardasses and want to stay as such. But IMO, more often than not, they just need someone who can compete with them.

So basically, I don't think you need to feel so reserved. If your demeanor can be interpreted as fun, such as by the people you know, then it probably can be interpreted the same by strangers. Just send a few extra cues that you enjoy them.

There's probably gonna be little mistakes there, but that's not horrible. What is horrible is to not make any progress on this front. Getting some extra experience under your belt is so worth it.

The problem is that it's not fun when I don't know the person, instead it's nervous. I have a very hard time with new people.

The only exception is at my church. For example, I was in this morning doing some rehearsals, and seeing as how it's Easter (the one time that college students will come back to the church), I saw this one friend of mine who graduated last year, and she had brought a friend along with her. I ended talking to the both of them for about 15 minutes, then provided friendly hugs when they had to leave. No I didn't get the other girl's name, and I'm probably never going to see her again, but it was still nice to talk to someone new.

The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not completely useless when it comes to chatting up women as long as I'm not in an uncomfortable situation and there's a common point of reference (such as a common friend introducing us). I'm also, as i've said many times around here, fairly good at making friends with women. But the point is that this casual approach that you mention as a good way to approach potential partners is exactly how I approach potential friends, so I'm still very confused by this "don't be their friend" thing...

Okay, that makes a lot of sense, then. Your standpoint here is quite valid and reasoned.

And sorry if I sound like I'm talking down, or patronizing - In reality, I'm not just talking to you, a lot of guys struggle with this same thing. I feel it's better to be relatively comprehensive in such a situation. Anyways.

I guess the tagline of "Don't be their friend" is a bit misleading. Doing friendship-seeking things, actually, is fine in many ways. It's just that if you're interested in seeing if they could be more, then you have to conjoin it with other elements that push it past simple friend-seeking behavior. In other words, flirting, which usually means discomfort on your part since you're so un-used to it. If you do not flirt, if you do not push it past purely friend-seeking behavior, then you will quickly see the relationship crystallize, you will get stuck in the groove you've carved, and it becomes difficult or nigh impossible to change it.

I know it's uncomfortable, but that's just too bad. We know that this situation you ran into today could've been more, for example. I know you're aware of that, and have no desire to be ragged on for it, but dammit, you gotta start seeing and taking more of the opportunities that come along. As well as being more forward. Clearly you had some semblance of passing interest in your friend's friend, for instance, or you'd have never mentioned her.

In your case, I think you'd be fine if you continued doing mostly what you've been doing, as to how you establish friendship, just add in more to it, and be more personal earlier. You wont drive them off. If you're not useless at making friends, then you're canny enough to know many of the lines that are not to be crossed. Though, perhaps you are seeing some lines which aren't actually there. Take some chances. With your aptitude thus far, you're probably fine with minor damage-control, so you have very little to risk or lose.