Just a shot in the dark about jerks v. "nice"

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Shebakoby
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25 Apr 2010, 4:28 pm

jerks won't even ask me out. :lol:

HopeGrows
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25 Apr 2010, 4:32 pm

Sound wrote:

Leander wrote:

Are quiet people really doomed to fail if they can't change themselves, or are there some (non-imaginary) girls out there who might actually be drawn to that? I understand the importance of "strong" now in the "strong silent type" stereotype that people sometimes admire, but can the "silent" part still be seen as a positive trait?

Sure, it can be. But the problem with focusing on that is exclusion of other traits. It's the mix ratio that's important. Any major deficit is a problem. So you can go ahead and be silent, shy, reserved, and it won't make you girl-proof. But that's generally only true if you don't have other deficits or issues that are interacting, such as a negativity orientation, or extreme awkwardness when you do speak, or being physical diminutive or unattractive or obesity, or being a 'homebody,' or being generally dry and uninteresting.

Introversion on it's own isn't a killer, it's just that if the combination of it, and other potential detractors, combine to make an unappealing picture. So it's exactly as you implied, 'Silent, but not at the expense of Strong'
In fact, there's lots of women who really, really like that if you personify it well enough.

Another similar interaction that a TON of guys misunderstand is the idea of sensitivity. When women say they want a sensitive guy, or more specific stuff like 'a guy who's not afraid to cry,' etc, they are usually omitting the more-important prerequisite: they want a basically strong man, but with a touch of sensitivity.
So the mixture is all out of whack with this common breed of 'Nice Guy'(and this represents me a few years ago, btw). They figure, 'I'm sensitive, my actions are always consistent with that, so what am I doing wrong?' The answer to that is usually their deficit in the 'strong' department.

This also explains the phenomenon of women attracted to jerks. Jerks are not that sensitive... but the seem strong, and it contrasts perfectly to the rare moment of sensitivity(...serving to inflate the perceived value of that moment....). They actually aren't that strong, as a whole, as they are generally still bitter despite their emotional extroversion(turning bitterness outward instead of inward, compared with the bitter introversion of the 'nice guy'), but at least their behavior is less easily identifiable as weak.

The sad thing is that a ton of 'nice guys' skip over the real solution when they see the seeming success of a jerk, and focus on him as the seemingly coveted guy. But he's not coveted one. He's the compromise, the step down from what women really want. Women don't want 'nice guys', but really they don't even want jerks either. They just want a guy who's not bitter, who has real self-esteem(which the jerk also lacks), and hopefully not too introverted.

Working on the introversion is easier - You just try to be more outgoing as best you can, get lots of social practice, and that will yield great progress. No need to be a social butterfly, not by a long-shot. Although getting more socially skilled will help you broadly, in general, the bigger part (which is more tricky) is to lose the bitterness, to raise self-esteem, and to realize the objectification of women which is innate to the nice-guy personality.
That part is tough, those are doozies.

+100

This actually should be it's own thread - really it should be it's own sticky. Truly one of the best explanations I've seen of this issue. Well done.

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Tim_Tex
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25 Apr 2010, 6:12 pm

Shebakoby wrote:

jerks won't even ask me out. :lol:

You probably aren't missing anything, though.

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Tim_Tex
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25 Apr 2010, 6:13 pm

While I don't buy into the nice guys vs. jerks stuff, I am curious as to whether guys have the same dilemma with "nice girls vs. jerks".

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hale_bopp
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25 Apr 2010, 6:22 pm

guys who consider themselves "nice guys" are just jerks that are bitter that they can't get anyone, so they pull an act to pretend they're hard done by.

I've spoken to these people online.. a guy.. I won't name who he is, but he used to go to wp.. said that "jerks" don't deserve me and that nice guys like him do... funny thing is.. the sort of stuff he talks about is as jerky as they come. Degrades women etc, thinks he's a nice guy when all he care about is the old "f**k and chuck".

I don't buy the whole nice guy act. Any angry bitter man is not a nice guy. The REAL nice guys are such a good catch they're almost always taken.

Luckily for me I can spot a wolf in sheep's clothing in this regard like a hawk, and stay well away.

Sometime I just go for the wolves on their own, and thats just as bad. I, like any others have a lot to learn. At least they don't pretend, doesn't make them any less scumbags though.

ToadOfSteel
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25 Apr 2010, 6:30 pm

hale_bopp wrote:

I don't buy the whole nice guy act. Any angry bitter man is not a nice guy. The REAL nice guys are such a good catch they're almost always taken.

Would you say that I'm an act or no?

Bugzee
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25 Apr 2010, 6:30 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:

While I don't buy into the nice guys vs. jerks stuff, I am curious as to whether guys have the same dilemma with "nice girls vs. jerks".

I would doubt it. Men are usually very critical of women, and if a woma ncomes across as being "bitchy", even in the slightest, the nastiness that swims around in a man's mind about women will come to the surface and men will identify that woman in the negativity.

Hector
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25 Apr 2010, 6:49 pm

I've noticed that "nice guy" is an ambiguous term, but also that the different meanings of the term tend to get conflated in these discussions. Like, say, if you (a straight, single and looking, guy) are rejected with a "you're a nice guy, but..." you may be inclined to think that she really enjoys your company as a friend despite her lack of interest in dating you. That may very well by the case. But she might be too cautious to tell you that she actually can't stand you, in which case the term "nice guy" is just a misnomer. Or maybe she can stand you, but doesn't care for your company anyway, yet can't think of anything particularly bad to say about you.

I might have been the "nice guy" who was rejected on a few occasions, but in most cases I doubt I was really rejected for being nice, whatever that means. I imagine likely reasons for me include coming across as arrogant, coming across as insecure, appearing "creepy" in some way, not being able to put her at ease, or just not being her type. The "jerk" (her eventual boyfriend) may be easier company than I am, in many cases. I can't speak for other men with AS, because we're all very different people, but if you're kind of socially awkward these may also be good candidates for why you didn't measure up.

hale_bopp
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25 Apr 2010, 7:31 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

hale_bopp wrote:

I don't buy the whole nice guy act. Any angry bitter man is not a nice guy. The REAL nice guys are such a good catch they're almost always taken.

Would you say that I'm an act or no?

I can't tell, I only know you on an internet forum, but from your posts I would say you're a nice guy who is not acting, but probably the sort of nice guy who complains about not being able to get a GF, but I think you would make a great BF for the right girl.

@Hector: The sort of nice guy who is actually nice who gets rejected, its not because hes nice. Its a socially submissive thing.
The dominant nice guys are the ones who get snapped up really really quickly. Then you have the jerks and the submissive guenuinely nice guys, and the "nice guys" (wolves in sheeps clothing.

Sound
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25 Apr 2010, 8:21 pm

Interesting, I tend to see the "nice guy," as you describe it, as the same kind of individual as the genuinely good, but submissive guy. Habitual submission and supplication generally goes hand-in-hand with passive aggressive, usually. The submissive guys just don't know they're bitter - They're wolves, and they don't realize it.

phil777 wrote:

i tend to skip the walls of posts sometimes. <.<

...Heh, I can tell.... :roll:

Chronos
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26 Apr 2010, 1:33 am

"Interesting, I tend to see the "nice guy," as you describe it, as the same kind of individual as the genuinely good, but submissive guy. Habitual submission and supplication generally goes hand-in-hand with passive aggressive, usually. The submissive guys just don't know they're bitter - They're wolves, and they don't realize it."

That is why I think the proper term is "nice guy" rather than, nice guy. "nice guy" is a particular type of guy who thinks they are nice but really has these submissive, passive aggressive qualities, and unrealistic ideas of how human attraction works.

I have a friend like this...one of my few friends. He's a nice person but he's also a "nice guy" and he has run into a lot of problems in life because of his passive aggressiveness and unwillingness to assert himself in certain situations.

I do agree, they can be very bitter because, though they deny this, they expect others to reciprocate their unreasonable "generosity" and "selflessness". They constantly expect others to guess when they are being upfront about their feelings or not, and with others do not reciprocate or guess correctly, they just get angry and don't explicitly say anything about it until a good time later when things fall apart for them.

I told my friend straight out "I'm dense so you need to TELL ME things straight up, otherwise, suffer"

Sometimes he chooses to suffer, but that's not my problem. I can't be expect to guess his unrealistic expectations when I can't even guess normal expectations very well.

phil777
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26 Apr 2010, 8:18 am

Well, Sound. When you do have ADD <.< ... Unless the replies are kept short n sweet or are VERY interesting, you tend to skip a lot of things.

Shebakoby
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26 Apr 2010, 2:46 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:

Shebakoby wrote:

jerks won't even ask me out. :lol:

You probably aren't missing anything, though.

Haha true. But the nice guys don't ask me out either.

ToadOfSteel
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26 Apr 2010, 3:14 pm

Shebakoby wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

Shebakoby wrote:

jerks won't even ask me out. :lol:

You probably aren't missing anything, though.

Haha true. But the nice guys don't ask me out either.

I would if you weren't technically old enough to be my mother (albeit it would have been a teen pregnancy)... you seem like such a nice woman and wondering why you're all alone makes me realize what other people mean when they say that they don't understand why I am alone...

MichelleRM78
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26 Apr 2010, 3:47 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

Shebakoby wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

Shebakoby wrote:

jerks won't even ask me out. :lol:

You probably aren't missing anything, though.

Haha true. But the nice guys don't ask me out either.

You know, you are such a sweet guy. With your mindset, you may have to actually consider going out with older women. I bet they would suit you much better.

GoatOnFire
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26 Apr 2010, 4:56 pm

Janissy wrote:

Ok, back to your premise. I think that sometimes that could come into play, but when I hear parents talk about what they want for their daughters, personality rarely comes into it.

Our experiences differ, then. I've seen several cases of parents who are pushing their kids towards someone who is brainy and not a drug addict. Something about them being 'safe'. Said kid seems to find this person boring and inevitably chooses an abusive as*hole who takes drugs and rides a motorcycle if a girl is making the choice, or less of a plain jane who is less brainy and more of a slut if it is a guy making the choice.

Sound wrote:

Ehh... yeah, this sounds to me like a completely separate phenomenon than the 'nice guy' paradigm. Completely unrelated, IMO.

I don't even view nice guys as a very specific paradigm other than that they are literally nice (kind, forgiving, and respectful of other people's dignity). However I have come to realize that people are talking about something different, maybe euphemistic even, when they say "nice guys". I think this is part of the mistranslation of my intentions.

Shebakoby wrote:

Tim_Tex wrote:

Shebakoby wrote:

jerks won't even ask me out. :lol:

You probably aren't missing anything, though.

Haha true. But the nice guys don't ask me out either.

What jerks. Maybe you should cook them and dry them out to make jerk jerky. Or add some Caribbean jerk sauce to make jerk jerk jerky.

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