NT in love with an Aspie - what are my chances?

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You ought to be commended for it. As I understand the situation, you saw what was going on and tried to clear the air and keep the marriage together. Obviously it backfired. Then again, meeting 5x a year tops during business hours in a public place (I assume) does not constitute an emotional affair. My own wife is close with other guys on a similar basis. It doesn't mean she's having emotional affairs with them either. Somebody that clingy and possessive is usually trouble in my book.

@Menintights, I wasn't writing for the OP. (Sorry, OP I think you'll get exactly what you deserve out of all this. After your first reply, I had absolutely no hope to influence you in any way. And I did already explain, "how he did not deliver," - he was undermining his marriage by having a relationship with an old flame and making plans with her. It's really not that hard to understand.)

I really was trying to draw @Morpheus316 out, because I've noticed the behavior you've described (and it does seem to be pretty male-centric), and I really don't understand it. I mean, I think constructive advice would mean more coming from a peer. How many bad situations and heartbreak would be avoided if guys here offered advice like , "If you're in over your head, don't lie. Just tell the woman you're in over your head." And that's the thing....when you start filling in your gaps of experience or understanding with lies, nothing good happens.

That is the most useful thing you've contributed. I didn't realize he was in over his head until it was too late. I wish to God I'd understood, so I could have done more to protect him. But if it hadn't been my email, I am certain it was just a matter of time before his wife would've manufactured some other excuse. He told me he didn't hate her, but I heard the way she spoke to him, and she hated him.


Bingo. Thank you very, very, very much for the validation.

Last edited by foomith on 09 Sep 2010, 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sadly, that's one of the drawbacks of posting in an aspie forum. Many aspies see things only in terms of black and white (good and evil). Many aspies (though obviously not all) also lack the relationship experience to truly understand your position.

Having been in a similar position some years back I can tell you that there's every chance that your aspie would have been living his life for his kids and living in constant "duck and cover" fear. It's no way to live one's life but it's better than a life without your children. Outsiders who see such a scenario can't understand it and will automatically pronounce such a marriage as "failed". Perhaps it is but while one person is continuing and the other is submitting, it's not "failed", just painful.

Your presence was the catalyst which "burst the bubble". Had you not come along, it's likely that the bubble would never have burst. Your aspie certainly wouldn't have ended it by himself - and I'm reluctant to believe that the wife really would have ended it without provocation. Not if she was getting everything she wanted. Of course, if she was truly unhappy too, then it would make sense that she'd want to end it but then that says some things about your man...

So... looking at his feelings. You would have been the sunshine in his rain. You would have made his day... every day. Just knowing that you were around would be enough to make him happy. He'd be living inside his "bad-day bubble" with the kids being his only light and you'd be the light outside the bubble. Two separate worlds, each with some joy to offset the sadness. When the bubble burst, all that would be left is pain. You're now associated with that pain because (I'm guessing), your actions resulted in his kids being taken away from him.

It will be a struggle to get close to him again because he's associating you with pain.

At the same time, I'd guess that it's now or never. You want to be part of the healing - not someone who wanders in after it's all cleared up. If you leave it too long, he might not let you in at all.

It took some time, but I came to understand that this was exactly how he was living: in perpetual fear and anxiety that she'd get mad and take it all away. It's not how I would choose to live, but I respected that he's not me, and chose differently.

What concerned me is that she was planning to leave anyway. Their relationship was deteriorating long before I showed up. He told me he didn't know why she stuck around, except for the money. They hadn't been intimate in years, and there was no substance to the relationship. He could live that way, but most NTs can't. He gave her as much he knew how - and more than he has to any other woman - but she was definitely not getting everything she wanted.

But she didn't really have a good reason to leave. He was faithful, a good provider, and cared about the kids, so what the heck would she say to her family and friends? "He's handsome, successful, lets me stay home and spend all his money, and loves the kids - but he doesn't pay enough attention to me?" She'd sound like a whiny b*tch, and they'd tell her to suck it up. I believe this is why she started snooping through his Blackberry and pounced on a harmless email, thinking she'd found the smoking gun.

She refused to believe him when he insisted we were not having an affair, and demanded to talk to my husband. Then she demanded to meet me in person. He begged me to at least call her and back him up. I didn't see the point. Any wife who truly wanted to work things out would invest her energy talking with HIM. Her insistence on talking to ME told me that her mind was already made up, and just wanted to burn everything down on her way out. My conversation with her confirmed that.

I was civil and credible and I think she believed me, but I think that actually fueled her anger. She wanted OUT - and he didn't even have the decency to give her something she could use against him in court.



He knows they had lots of other problems too, and his own actions played a role as well, so I'd guess he spends a lot more time thinking about that. Not to mention that she was insecure, overreactive, high-maintenance, and impossible to communicate with. If my harmless little email was all the provocation it took, that volcano was going to erupt anyway. Subtract me from the equation, and I doubt it would have lasted another year.

Now, he may not have arrived at that conclusion. But then, maybe he has, or will. He's been involved with women like her before, because that's the type he tends to attract. (I was a fluke, a one-off, totally not his type. My aloofness intrigued him, he liked my hair, and he hated my boyfriend. An explosive romance followed.)


Possibly. That was my expectation for quite some time. However, we've communicated a few times since then, and he knows I did all I could. I don't think he blames me, because if he did, I don't think he'd ask if I was still in town, or thank me for a gift, or communicate with me at all.


I have wanted to and tried to be part of the healing, but he's made it clear that he does not want that. I've asked if we could talk in person, but he won't because being with me, near me, is just too - dangerous, I think is the word he was looking for.

In June, we had a friendly little exchange and he asked if I was still in town. I think he was in a good place then. Now, I think he's in a bad place. Something is going on and he doesn't want me around right now. You may be right, so I'm standing by. But I've known him for a long time, and he processes pain and depression in solitude. He retreats into his shell and avoids women.

I don't want to mosey in after it's all cleared up either -- I've very much wanted to to be with him through all this -- but I think he needs to work through whatever phase he's in. I know from experience that pressuring him is the WRONG answer. I've told him I love him, I still want to be with him, and that I'm right here anytime he's ready. I feel any more than that right now may cause a meltdown and alienate him for an even longer period of time.

By distancing himself from me right now, he may be trying NOT to associate me with pain.

Thank you so much for helping me think this through. I'd be interested to know your reaction to any of this.

Last edited by foomith on 07 Sep 2010, 9:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

I'd like to ask a question about this.

If he wants me to move on, I reasoned that it would only be fair that he would have to as well. I've given him a couple of gifts and asked him to send them back to me. He refused.

If he was associating me with pain, wouldn't he be glad to comply and get rid of them?

Last edited by foomith on 09 Sep 2010, 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

foomith,

He obviously doesn't really want you to move on. He's just in a bad place and has his reasons for pushing you away.

Amongst the obvious one are;

- He still has feelings/intentions regarding his wife (at this stage probably very unlikely)
- He is scared that your presence could impact his ability to see his kids (fairly likely if court proceedings are going on)
- He has strong feelings of guilt and wants to hurt/punish himself by denying himself the thing he wants the most (extremely likely)
- He has other negative plans (unlikely, if something was going to happen, it probably already would have)

I tend to feel that it's the punishment reason because that figured greatly in my own similar experience. It's also supported by the fact that he wants something to remember you by and won't let go of it.

If this is what is going on, you really need to convince him that he's hurting YOU too and that you don't want to be punished. It's easy to make oneself suffer, it's much harder to make someone else whom you love suffer.

Can you elaborate on this self-denial/punishment rationale? I think you're on to something, but I can't relate at all.

Last edited by foomith on 09 Sep 2010, 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Last edited by foomith on 09 Sep 2010, 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

It's a common form of self-punishment to deny yourself the thing that you want the most.

Self-punishment tends to be the result of feelings of guilt. It seems pretty obvious that your aspie is carrying a huge amount of guilt around with him. I'm sure he's annoyed with his wife about snooping but equally he's probably blaming himself for leaving the evidence around - or for getting involved and following his heart instead of his head. He'll be more likely to blame himself for losing his children than you.

In these sorts of circumstances, aspies often invoke all kinds of rules which mean a lot to them but may seem bizarre to everyone else. The end result of the rules and the guilt is usually self punishment. Sometimes it's done by self-harm (cutting, hitting oneself etc), sometimes it's done by isolation (hiding away), sometimes it's simply denial - often denial of the things they most want.

Hi Foomith I've been reading along, and wishing you the best in what's obviously a complex situation, but not having any advice that pertains to the situation I didn't say anything. I saw what you wrote in the deleted post before you deleted it. Not sure why you deleted it. Anyway, I signed up to the site to give you a response to that, because it is something I can speak to, so you're getting a response whether you delete your post or not .

I am one of those guys who was diagnosed in my 40's and in my case it had a very positive effect on my life. (The diagnosis was by a relative, not a clinician, so possibly it's wrong, but I don't think so.) For instance, in my particular case, it made it possible for me to have romantic relationships with women. Since I'm very poor at reading body language, I've always tried to understand people by theory of mind. But before I was diagnosed, I based my theory of mind on the assumption that I had average ability to read body language (because assuming that a sample of one is highly atypical makes no sense as a null hypothesis and I had no context to judge otherwise). So I presumed that other people were as incapable of reading body language as myself. Based on this model, womens' observed behaviour in dating situations made no sense at all. (It wasn't often a fatal handicap to my ability to understand people outside of potentially romantic relationships.) A while after I was told I had Asperger's, I realised that one of the implications was that NT women are a lot better at reading body language than I am, in ways that I would no more have imagined without being told of Asperger's than a colourblind person would imagine that red and green are different, and all of a sudden a lot of their previously inexplicable behaviour made complete sense. Multiply this several times over for implications in other situations, and you can see that knowledge of the actual situation is very useful.

In response to your particular situation, I think it's absolutely your business to tell him if you want to: you're a very close friend. He's an adult and can disagree if he wants. It's within a friend's domain to tell him of things that are easier to see from the outside than the inside, and it's within his domain to tell you you're wrong and kindly drop the subject if that's what he thinks. I wouldn't plan on him taking it positively, based on the description you've given of him, but again, he's an adult and entitled to make up his own mind. But the downside if he takes it negatively or brushes the suggestion off is pretty small (except that his ex-wife might be able to use it against him? best not to tell her), and the potential upside is very large. If, of course, it's true: you're not a clinician, etc. But he can't even start checking out that sort of resource unless you raise the possibility with him.

Gavin, thank you for your insights - I will give them careful consideration. (Obviously, I'm carrying around a lot of guilt too).

However, I think you are much healthier and more functional (in the psychological sense) than my aspie. He's kind of like a stray dog, abused and chased away. He gets hostile when he feels threatened. I don't think he has much to lose at this point, but I have no idea if he would agree.

Basil, I deleted my last question because, although I've kept it as anonymous as possible, I felt a pang of guilt over sharing so much extremely private information about someone else's life. I hate to feel like I'm prying. But I care about his well-being, and I'm excited because I finally "get it."

Thank you for appreciating the complexity of the situation and not rushing to any judgments. I've seen him spin these webs of impenetrable ambiguity before, with similar results. It all finally makes sense now, and he's not nearly as complicated or ill-intentioned as everyone thinks, despite appearances.

For the record, both he and I reject the idea that we were having an emotional affair. Were all of our conversations perfectly innocent? No. We missed each other. But it would be more accurate to say that we were developing a friendship. He had his life and I had mine, and we touched base every now and then. That emotional distance is precisely what allowed me to see his situation objectively, and why I don't want to give up on him now. We'd come so far.

Basil, your shift in perspective parallels mine. I often felt like I was trying to explain color to someone who could only see in black and white (similar to your color-blind analogy). When I learned about AS, I realized that everyone (including me) was making many assumptions about his intentions and capabilities that he simply did not have.

For example, there were a dozen things he could have said or done to turn that email situation around, which crossed my mind in about a nanosecond. But none of them even occurred to him. When his wife asked who I was, he told her that we'd dated at university, and he'd recently helped me find a job. Presumably, he meant to convey that I was a colleague. But I cursed when he told me this, because I knew what she heard: he helped an old flame get settled in town, to have me lined up for when he got rid of her. Nothing could have been further from the truth. He had no intention of leaving, but I'm sure his panic fueled her suspicions, because people only run from the cops if they're guilty. It was just a terrible misunderstanding - just like many other "miscommunications" in his past that have led to disaster.

I think his ability to read body language is generally pretty good. His biggest challenge is appreciating context. He seems unaware of the backdrop of social positions, interactions, subtexts, circumstances, and cues that NTs use to interpret the words spoken. For example, during that conversation, I asked some questions about their situation, which he blew off as irrelevant. I explained that I needed context so I could understand the state of mind of someone he was asking me to talk to, and still he refused to provide any information. It began to dawn on me that maybe I'd put him in a position he couldn't handle - something I'd never, ever meant to do. But by that point, she was outraged and he was freaking out, so I had to wing it, cold. I have no idea what happened next, but obviously, it didn't go well.

Unfortunately, my aspie's theory of mind appears to be based on all the cruel and unfair accusations women have made against him over the years. Fraud, phony, fake, psycho, bad intentions, evil plots, etc. I've witnessed him melt down a couple of times, and that's the kind of stuff he says. Once it was so bad, I almost committed suicide. Now I understand, he's been hearing these things his whole life, so I'm actually quite impressed with how functional and sane he is. His career is rock-solid and he's very active in sports. But he thinks he's boring, worthless, and crazy, and no one ever believes his side of the story. There is a kernel of SELF inside him that KNOWS he's done nothing wrong, and that's what I want to cultivate, if there's a way.

I became a close friend, but due to his context impairment, I'm not sure he can think of me that way. His thinking is quite rigid, and I'm in the "love/romance" category. That's different from the "friend" category (which is exclusively male), and I don't believe he can think of one person as belonging to many categories all at once. He once told me that I didn't know any more about him than his wife. But I'm still around and she's not, so I think it's self-evident that I do. Still, he hates feeling psychoanalyzed, and I don't want to risk another meltdown. My sense is that now is not the time to suggest AS. But, he's "in the cave," so maybe it is.

Excellent points. (No, I'm not a clinician, but my background is in neurology, so AS is totally fascinating to me).

Another factor to consider: I think his son is on the spectrum too, and is at a school where it's unlikely to be correctly identified. If my aspie could open his mind to it, I think he'd see the world with new eyes. As you say, his prospects for a romantic relationship would improve (yes, I want that to be me - I mean, an aspie married to a thick-skinned neurologist, how perfect would that be!) It might even give him a way to connect with his son, and perhaps the ex-wife could be more sympathetic. I'm not sure how she could use it against him. AS is by no means a basis to deny visitation.

Bottom line, brutally honest: I have a lot invested in this. If the suggestion of AS upsets him, I don't want him to blame the messenger. But if it helps him, I want to be part of his life. I realize, I should tell him because I care about him and for no other reason. But I've sacrificed myself for him a few times now, and this time, yeah, I'd like some reward for it. Figuring this out was as hard as earning a PhD. I don't want to give it away for free. Or worse, to be punished for it. So it's a delicate thing, for both of us.

Basil, how did you find out? How did you feel? How long did it take to sink in? You sound basically good-natured, while my aspie is, well, a bitter misanthrope. Do you have any suggestions for the best way I could bring it up? It makes me very nervous and I'll only get one shot at it.

Basil, I wanted to thank you for signing up just to offer your thoughts on this thread. There are more questions I'd like to ask you, but that's up to you. Sorry if I'm a little intense.

So, where to go from here?

I've often felt that whatever is going on with my aspie, it's not about me. I don't think it is this time either. I can only speculate, but it would make sense if he's resolved never to have a relationship again. I'm considering that he'd almost have to know about AS before he really could.

I feel burdened by the knowledge. It has huge implications for his whole life, and I have no way to predict how he'd react. Well, I expect anger no matter what. But more angry for suggesting he's defective (which of course is not at all how I see it), or more angry because I've known for about a year now and I've kept it from him all this time? Or something else I never thought of?

I don't have to make the decision today, but if I tell him, I'll have to be prepared for the worst - and that may take me a while.

All this help thinking it through has been extremely helpful. Thank you!

You have this potentially life-changing information to share with him (life-changing for both himself and his son), but you don't want to "give it away for free?" You'd like some "reward" for sharing this information with him? Unbelievable.

I have more empathy for his wife than it might seem. Having a relationship with him is extremely difficult, and ultimately impossible if you don't know about AS and learn how to adapt, communicate, and shift your expectations. You're never quite sure what he thinks, what he wants, or how he feels about you, and you feel like you give every speck of your being for nothing in return. You constantly wonder what you're doing wrong, and then you wonder why you're wasting your time. The emotional security you felt in the beginning fades, until you find yourself doing things just to see if your existence even matters to him. You get your brains scrambled and your ego ground down to nothing, and feel like you're starving to death. Leaving is the only time he suddenly seems to care, but by then you don't believe it, and you may be already involved with someone else, because getting your emotional needs met elsewhere was the only way to stay sane. Maybe you unleash all that frustration in one final blowout - and he tells you you're the crazy one.

So I get exactly why she left. I get why every woman has left. Many moons ago, I left too - because a judgmental busybody who'd never had a conversation with him or spent a minute alone with him pronounced him no good and pressured me to abandon him. I still loved him, I wasn't angry, and I knew something wasn't adding up, but she didn't give me a chance to think it through. On some level, I knew I'd made the biggest mistake of my life, and here we are.

I'm in the midst of a thought process here. He and I have ruined each others' lives a few times now, and I sure as heck don't want to screw up again. Men who find out in their 40s, after so much damage is already done, aren't always real thrilled, and my guy has suicidal tendencies. After all he's already been through, I have to consider that telling him might do more harm than good. Basil is the first person who's got me thinking it might not, but still, it's not an intervention with an alcoholic. You don't just ring up and say, "guess what! you're not wired right! what a relief!" with the smug, cheerful certainty that you've "saved" the poor bastard, who may look upon the vast wreckage of his life, see it was all preventable if only he'd known sooner, and then blow his brains out.

Basil and Gavin helped me distinguish AS issues from emotional/psychological ones, which was extremely helpful, because I'd say my aspie, minus the AS, has a boatload of them. I suppose the "reward" I want is just for things to go well this time, and not to end in disaster as they have every time our lives have touched in the past. So I have to be ready too, and I'm not sure I'm there just yet.

Last edited by foomith on 12 Sep 2010, 1:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

@Foomith: I wouldn't have checked the thread again if you'd just edited the earlier post, so I'm glad you posted again. Sorry not to post earlier, but I didn't see the message until just before I had to work.

To understand the context of my finding out about having Asperger's, you have to know that the original Star Trek came out when I was a small kid. So, of course, I identified with Mr. Spock, and wanted to be logical and knowledgeable about lots of things when I grew up . As I got older, I realized that the "no emotions" thing wasn't a realistic goal , but I always knew I was different from the people around me. So when my mother started telling me that she'd been reading about something called Asperger's Syndrome and that I had displayed pretty much every characteristic feature as a small child, my response was that this seemed like a logical analysis. I'd already read about the Syndrome, and noticed that it seemed to describe me, but figured that since it affected less than one person in 100 it wasn't likely that I actually had it. After that conversation with my mother, I finally had a name for how I was different from the people around me, and validation that my thinking that I'm different had been correct all along. Not things to get upset about. (Besides, NT's are so illogical who'd want to be one of them? Vulcans: much cooler!)

But unfortunately all of that makes me a poor predictor of why your guy might get angry. As noted, this isn't at all something that I'd get angry about. However, somebody who'll get angry because a friend gives them advice, advice that they can then take or leave, isn't really a healthy person to get into a relationship with. I realise that giving up at this point would be something like quitting a marathon with only a couple of hundred metres to go, and I'm not suggesting you do that, but maybe, if he does get angry over this and blame you (which IMO he has no justification to do), you can take it as a sign that you're better off outside this particular romance? Because unless he changes, which you can't count on, there'll always be another thing he might get angry over that you have tiptoe around.

As a side-note to that, you don't seem very thick-skinned to me. You mention that you "almost committed suicide" after one of his meltdowns and that you were taking "Xanax" for a while. Those aren't reactions characteristic of thick-skinned people.

It is possible that your aspie might have resolved not to get involved with a woman again. I did, at one point, resign myself (slightly different) that I was never going to have a girlfriend again, and there was a lot of peace in that. (And after I was told that I was an Aspie I eventually realised that that was why I hadn't been able to get girlfriends, and that now that I knew the problem I could solve it.)

It also seems plausible to me that the son might be "on the spectrum". I certainly inherited my symptoms from my father, and I know a couple who both IMO have Aspergers' and I understand both of their kids have been diagnosed with it. (I found about about the kids when I started to bring the subject up with the father: he immediately mentioned the kids, and I was thinking "look in a mirror", but he didn't seem enthused about hearing so I didn't press the issue.) Similarly, it's also possible that your guy inherited it from his parents.

Incidentally, I've also been in situations where women I'd "rejected" would have been more than welcome back in my life. Me: "Is she interested in me? I haven't a clue! I know! I'll stop calling her! If she's interested in me, she'll call me!" <crickets> Me a few weeks later:

As to how his ex could use it against him? If she's looking for an excuse to demonize him, it's an excuse. There's a woman in Australia who's the ex-wife of a successful Aspie who did all the things "good guys" are supposed to do for their wives, so she's using the fact that he's an Aspie to blame him for "emotional abuse" (as in lack of emotional attention). Your friend's wife might also blame their son's having it (if the son does) on her ex-husband, which would then be another thing she'd feel entitled to get revenge for.