Is this always the case?

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Did you marry someone who makes half of what you made? You never addressed this, his income. I never said women don't marry for love, but they sure make sure the men on that list make money. The dumb ones don't, and they and their descendants descend very quickly into poverty and obscurity.

To your second quote -- once again, what do you do, what does your husband do, and how much different is the income between both of you?

What about those women who choose men who are really poor in the hope they can 'change them'?

It happens. Is that a happy end result though? Or does the woman eventually give up and bail on him? Or do they both end up being social and financial failures, enmeshed in a cycle of poverty and learned helplessness?

I have no idea. I just wondered - what do you think happens?
Do you think having a woman pushing him to have a higher income could help him?

edit: sounds like i'm talking about my own relationship - however, i'm not cause i earn a lot less than my partner - just curious on the matter.

From what I've seen in life, a person has to want to change themselves. Pressure from outside may or may not help -- they may eventually end up really resenting the other person if the first person is very set in their ways.

Betting on changing someone is betting for disaster. People do change over time, but their personalities and work habits seldom do without some massive internal reason for that. Someone who is on a big self-improvement kick can make a difference in their own life (I am proof of this, I turned my life around in my teens after figuring out how to motivate myself and find goals that meant something to me). Someone else won't be able to successfully motivate that same person as effectively.

So I think what really happens is that the woman ends up being more and more dissatisfied, both partners build up resentment as they realize they have opposing goals in life (one wants to slack off and be parasitic, the other one wants to move forward and build a real life), and they end up ending the relationship.

Or the woman caves in, accepts that the guy is a bum and that she will have to do all of the work, or bury her dreams and sink to his level.

Sad, right? But I think also true

I'm not sure how my husband's income is any of your business but I'm not impolite so I'll answer your intruding questions without numbers. Right now I make nothing because I'm a SAHM. I casually run my own business to earn money here and there for the sake of it. I'm sure you're going to think this proves your point because anything he earns would be more than $0, but I care fuckall what he earned when I met him and decided to marry him.

When I met him, we were both working and he barely earned more than me. Then he left that job to assist his father with the family business and made much less. Then he got a job back in his field and made a hell of a lot more. Then he left that job (too many politics made him miserable so I told him to get a different job where he was happy) for something that earned half of that. He was laid off six months after that and couldn't get a job for seven months. Now he's working for half of what he earned when I met him (which is the lowest) and that's fine. If I met him when he was a firefighter, I would've earned considerably more than him (and amazingly still loved him like I appreciated other "lower income" gentlemen I dated in my life).

If I had continued to get my Pharm.D, I would've earned more than him at all but one of the jobs, including 4x what he was earning as a firefighter. He would have become a SAHD like he was for my step-daughter. His ex-wife is a CFO. They made the decision for him to sell his business (a successful ISP at the time that brought in more money than her salary) and stay home with the baby because her executive job (with a hospital) earned enough as a single income, provided excellent benefits and he was just better with kids than she was. And if before you ask (because I know you're dying to dive into their business, too), his ex-wife is overcritical. She criticizes, insults and picks fights non-stop. She was this way when he ran his business and was the same when he was a SAHD. Everything he did was wrong. He couldn't take it anymore, got a job to support himself and left. I think she gets off on the confrontation and, sometimes, I don't even think she's aware of how she's acting. She never has boyfriends for more than a few months at a time before they bail. I've known her for years and I never bite at her baiting so we get along alright. She can always get my husband to bite.

As far as "poverty and obscurity", I have been poor. I was raised in a wealthy family where material things and money mattered. I always had the necessities and the non-essentials. I never gave a crap about any of it. I've been poor as a single mother and, I have to say, my kids have been happier than I was at their ages. My husband and I have had our rough spots, some of them before we were married and we were just living together, but we got through because it's not the money that sustains the relationship, it's the love. If there's love and respect, you can weather anything. I don't know if I've ever been "obscure"... unless we count the AS.

Anyway, we're not unique little snowflakes. You call my life "Disney", I call yours "Desperate Housewives". I don't deny that there are shallow, selfish people in the world who are obsessed with materialism, but it's time for the social dinosaurs to move past the classist and sexist BS. Hell, maybe I'm dumb because I chose happiness over whatever it is you want. A Lexus? Who cares about an expensive car! I have 4 kids and 2 stepkids; I have to drive a minivan, anyway.

If a woman chooses a man in the hopes that she can change him, she's already choosing a man for the wrong reason, don't you think?

Yeah, that's true. I just see women who only choose men like that. I just wondered why.

Yeah, I know. I have seen that tendency with women toward men who have other problems. It was a common theme for how a woman would get mixed up with someone not good for her at the women's shelter I volunteered at. Women think they can fix them. They just get their hearts (as well as other body parts) broken. Trying to stop someone from drinking or hitting is obviously a lot more severe than trying to get them to finally go for that promotion to Assistant Manager at McDonald's, but the problem isn't what they're trying to change about someone, it's that they're in the relationship to change the person. It's really best to be with someone because you love who they are and aren't trying to make them into someone that you would want. Trying to change other people, no matter what one is trying to change, is ill-advised.

LOL, that was a very long way of saying "I make less than my husband". Let's face it -- you wouldn't have married him if he was an uneducated homeless guy -- in fact, you probably would never have met. I'm not saying that love doesn't conquer a lot - it just doesn't conquer ALL. There are always other factors, besides love, that get added in. I brought in your income and your husbands because you disputed my point, and I addressed your source of argument and the point that was being debated.

My home life is less "Desperate Housewives" (I'm not wealthy, I'm solidly middle-class) than it is maybe a sitcom, like the Cosby Show.

Something that continues to amuse me/bother me here -- I see a lot of people who seem to have been fully programmed by our popular culture to think in a certain way, even if that is untrue or extremely realistic.

Specifically -- we live in a culture (assuming you are in the U.S. or Western Europe) that believes in the happy ending, the princess ending up with the frog, etc. What we fail to think about sometimes is that the happy ending that we worship so much is a commercial product -- 19th and 20th century sentimentality packaged for profit. To an extent, this is fine -- it is entertainment, and should be treated as such.

What is amusing and simultaneously alarming is how so many men, especially those with other issues (not just Aspies) seem to think this is reality, that a Princess is going to swoop in out of the blue, instantly see them for the prince in a frog's skin that they are, and marry them. Life is a lot more complicated than that, as is the courting process, even in the case of rushed relationships.

You have guys on these boards that really need to:
1. Get a real job
2. Get out of their parents house
3. Get treatment for their various issues, including social ones
4. Get realistic about life and how it works. Disney is not reality.

Because at the end of the day, these guys need to get real about what women look for and expect -- a guy who is independent and able to take care of himself, at the minimum. Those of us who know this try very hard to get that message across.

And then someone like you comes along and posts (I'm being facetious here, so don't get too offended) that a guy can be a homeless drooling moron, and someone great will come along and find them or love them just the same, and it's like a huge step backwards.

Want a GF/Wife/F-buddy? Women want men, men have jobs and live on their own. It's that simple. Your height can affect some things, your looks can affect others -- not having a job affects a whole lot.

I gave up my career to be a SAHM, where I earn $0. Of course I make less than him, as I explained in the above... oh nevermind.

Keep your straw man argument. As a man you're undereducated and ill-equip to lecture me (a woman) on what women want in a man. Unless you believe, as a man, you somehow must know better than me? Are you incapable of making a point without relying on a straw man and extremes? That's irrational to me. I'm not concerned with perpetuating BS because there are men on the forum who need to move out of their mom's basements and do something with their lives. I'm more concerned with not perpetuating sexism and classism, which is all your so-called advice does.

Screw it. I'm bored now.

PS: There is no middle class. It's a classist myth perpetuated by people like my father who wanted to make sure people like you voted to keep him wealthy. "Solidly" middle class makes me LOL.

Ouch -- don't go away angry! If debating a point and having to think up counter-arguments makes you mad, might I suggest that you not engage someone else in a debate? There's a disturbing trend here of some folks that like to jump in and challenge someone, and then slink away or distract from the points (like I made above, any response?) when someone comes up with a coherent counter-argument. This is a forum -- we're not all going to agree, but we should be able to discuss things like real people.

My tone wasn't angry above, or wasn't meant to be. I do think you unloaded a lot of info on me, but that's ok, I do that too. It's our Aspie-ness

The thing you said about the middle class -- you're not related to that guy in Arizona, are you?
Because that sounded kinda CRAZY.

There most certainly is a middle class. It is shrinking, and many in the upper and true middle class are now dropping into the lower middle class and upper-lower class, but it's there. I don't dispute that some of our democracy is a sham (essentially, the two parties are just puppets working for some of the same corporate overlords) -- however, this still doesn't remove the fact that there are people out there with lots of education and social traction who are not wealthy landowners. Where would you put them?

E.g., hypothetical example here -- someone from a household making $80k a year (not very much by Los Angeles standards) but has a masters in Econ, goes to art museums every week, and can write intelligently is a whole universe of social class and education away from a janitor whose household income is the same. I would not put them in the same silo as who they would vote for (e.g. lots of the undereducated lower middle class voted for tea party candidates, even though in fact the whole party is contrary to their real interests), possible future acquaintances, or someone whose kids I would want my kids to be friends with.

Don't go too far and start drinking the Communist kool-aid -- that was all a farce too. The world is actually an oligarchy, with different rackets competing for profits, and puppet politicians who pretend to represent their constituencies, but there certainly is a middle class in that mix that gets manipulated, just like any other social class. We are very far from serfs living on a feudal lord's land -- I have rights, I'm allowed to defend myself, and if a corporation messes up too badly, I can mess them up pretty badly in civil court.

Btw, I thought your specialty was Pharmacology....? Not Econ/Sociology? Because you said I was "undereducated" to make any generalizations about things that economists know as a whole about the general population (despite spending almost all of my free time reading on a diversity of topics, a BA degree, and a masters in Business), yet you seem to have some very specific and polarized economic and sociological statements to make -- just want to be sure you have that PhD in Econ or Soc to make such a statement

I think you know that I've got #s 1,2&4 pretty well covered. As far as the income goes, she wouldn't even have to work if she didn't want to and we'd live just fine, enough said.

About #3 however, I know I could use professional help, but I'm having a hell of a time finding it.

Let me put it this way, I've put more than one psychologist's kids through college. It was worth every penny and has been of tremendous benefit in helping me to achieve the level of functioning that I have.

Having said that, it really hasn't helped me very much on the social front. According to them, I should be running away from hordes of women like John, Paul, George, & Ringo - obviously that's not the case.

I always get the usual advice: go to church, join a club, do volunteer work etc etc

But what good does that do if I just "Aspie-out" when/if I manage to strike up a conversation? Thus far the results have been very demoralizing

I need someone who specializes in adults with Aspergers, and that's proven extremely difficult to find. I think it's mostly because widespread diagnosis of the condition is relatively new, and most people at my age who have it probably don't even know it, resulting in a lack of demand. I may have fallen through the cracks in this regard.

I think at the end of the day, I just need "dumb luck" - I just need to meet someone who can see past my AS enough to realize that I really have a lot to offer, it just really sucks that no one will stick around long enough to give me that chance.

Guess I need to go out and buy a rabbit's foot...

Hi Grisha,

I'm glad you responded ---

Yeah, I've been following your particular case for a while here, and I would agree that you have a lot of the above covered. #3 is really the big sticking point -- I can only surmise that you would have to find a psychiatrist and a therapist (maybe separately) that know how to accurately address autism spectrum disorders, especially Aspergers. This field of study seems to be gathering momentum in the past 10 years, so you may have much better luck in major cities finding this -- not sure what city you live in at the moment.

The key thing for you is that you are fumbling (and it is not necessarily your fault or intention) or getting sacked about 25 yards short of the goal. You have the job, you have the looks, you are independent, but something in your manner is really setting them off, despite what I know must be your best efforts to the contrary. I can only imagine how frustrating this must be... Based on other posts you made, I really do think it is the affect.

Once in a while you do seem to get a good lead, but then you self-sabotaged (per your post yesterday) sometimes when you were within reach -- not an uncommon reaction for folks here, or anyone who gets within reach of a goal they really want and then lets their self-esteem screw them up. We've all been there in one form or another.

I'm watching your OK cupid thread -- I still have high hopes that someone will find you to be the perfect match.

Thanks for that.

I agree with you totally, except I feel like I'm getting sack 2 yards from the goal.

I live in Orange County at present, so I pretty much have everything from San Diego to LA covered. This should make my odds pretty good, but therapists ) really seem to focus on skills related to independent living and not romantic relationships - many Aspies have much bigger fish to fry than just getting dates.

However, you've given me the inspiration to have another go at it, I'll see if I can come up
with something.

I gave no indication of being angry. I said I was bored.



You did not provide me with a coherent counter-argument. You laughed at me, disregarded my polite answer to your very intrusive question and made a straw man argument in response.



I didn't say it was.



I answered your intrusive question politely and honestly.



You're equating me with a mentally disturbed domestic terrorist who just this past Saturday killed six people, one of them a 9 year old girl who was born on 9/11/01, and injured numerous others? That lacks class and is way out of line. I realize what I said shocks your system because you're very secure in your class privilege, but I was just letting you know that you have none.



Nope. Never was. There is also no gold at the end of a rainbow and the tooth fairy isn't the one bringing children money when their baby teeth fall out. If you want to believe, you can clap your hands and keep believing. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!



Now, you're calling me a Communist and referring to a religious cult that killed its followers. Again, out of line. Insulting me does not make your point any truer. It certainly doesn't help me take you seriously.



Okay. Good luck with that. American dream and all.



Here's where you begin to directly attack me because I discredited your claim of what women want based on you not being a woman. You don't even have a woman in your life to gather information from. Having no defense, all you can do is the typical internet ad hominem attack. I haven't bothered to quote where you laughed at me a second time.

Although your first straw man was to call me emotional, I do give you some credit for not bringing my menstrual cycle into your argument. This is why I get bored. Internet arguments don't have any purpose.