How to deal with unwanted attention?

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ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 5:53 pm

mds_02 wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

BlueMax wrote:

Blasting genuinely decent men enough times will turn them into misogynists. They're not born that way.

Constantly having strange men rate your looks aloud to you and solicit you for dates will turn women into fed-up "b*tches" (really???) who snap at people. They're not born that way, either.

If women are expected to be forgiven when their past experiences impact their personalities in a negative manner, then why are men not extended the same courtesy?

There are a lot of women here, you being fairly prominent among them, who complain about the misogyny in this section. And I don't think they (or you) are wrong to do so.

However, you seem, based on the above quote, to feel that, when a woman has been treated poorly by men in the past, it absolves her of (or at least mitigates) her responsibility to not treat others poorly.

If that is the case (and, if I am mistaken, please clarify and I will retract this post), then why the hostility toward the men here who are doing the exact same thing?

Oh, um, because occasionally-snapping at an individual for annoying you is slightly different from concluding an entire sex is evil because a couple smacked down your sexual advances in such a way..

For realsies right now?

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12 Oct 2012, 5:55 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Just a little thing.
We talk a lot about how being autistic can make it difficult to tell if we're being creepy or stepping over a line.
I think it's worthwhile to deal with how this disability can also make dealing with strangers soliciting us, often with a hard sell, or touching us, or getting really close extremely difficult and unpleasant to deal with. Especially when dealing with people socialized to hear "no" as "try harder". When someone doesn't respect your words and boundaries, your words and boundaries will not work to make them leave.

This is true. It is an extremely unfortunate aspect of our condition that, what others find acceptable, we may not and vice versa. However, it is our responsibility to learn which behaviors are considered socially acceptable. Both so that we can exhibit them ourselves, and so that we can learn to accomodate (or at least not be rude to) those who are also exhibiting them.

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Anyone who will change their position on whether or not women are equal and human due to sexual rejection was never a good person to begin with. Anyone who hates people for not being open to proposition, was never good to begin with.

True. At the same time, anyone who enjoys cutting others down just for something innocent like being attracted or showing interest isn't that great of a person either.

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ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 5:59 pm

mds_02 wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Quote:

True. At the same time, anyone who enjoys cutting others down just for something innocent like being attracted or showing interest isn't that great of a person either.

I'm pretty sure the people in question would prefer altogether not to be bothered- I was making a case for people like the OP who are constantly-barraged with the "innocent" "attraction" or "interests" of others- that's why I think a less than eye-batting response can came out, sometimes. How you think being on the receiving end can rationally translate into misogyny is beyond me.

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12 Oct 2012, 6:12 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

What's "disrespectful" is unique to the individual. Aspies often say things to NT's with golden intentions with no clue that it's indeed disrespectful and hurtful, for instance, and vice versa. Going to a BAR is one scene, being bothered while one is reading, or at school, or at work (or my local grocery produce department) are completely different. But, in all honesty, what does it matter if something's "socially-acceptable"? That doesn't make it right, nor does it change that it's NOT acceptable to all people (hence our discussion in the first place). It also doesn't change that attractive women, who tend to have more of a problem fending off such random gawkers, just plain get sick of it and snap sometimes.

I get that there is some subjectivity here.

However, there is such a thing as socially accepted standards of behavior. These may be harder for us to learn than for others, but they do exist.

But learning them is valuable for us for two reasons. Firstly, because it helps us not to violate them (for instance, not snapping at or insulting those who intended us no disrespect). And secondly, learning them helps us to realize when others are violating them, which helps immensely in determining whether or not the other person intended disrespect (or didn't care, which amounts to the same thing), which helps us determine which people deserve to be snapped at or insulted.

Quote:

You began with the premise that (some) people who hate the female sex are made that way by repeated experience. Is it so far-fetched to say that women who snap at men who approach them out of sheer exhaustedness with it all are likely also a product of their experiences? Or are they just un"reasonable" "as*holes"?

Um, yeah. They are. People who treat undeserving others poorly are as*holes regardless of their reasons. And I never said that the misogyny on this board was reasonable or acceptable. In fact, I very clearly said that it was right for women here to complain about it. What I was pointing out is that those women who choose to treat men poorly are contributing to the problem, as are those who advise other women to treat men poorly.

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12 Oct 2012, 6:17 pm

rosemund wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

BlueMax wrote:

Blasting genuinely decent men enough times will turn them into misogynists. They're not born that way.

Constantly having strange men rate your looks aloud to you and solicit you for dates will turn women into fed-up "b*tches" (really???) who snap at people. They're not born that way, either.

^This.

Normally, I am an amicable person. The OP mentioned reading, which to me, means you are involved in an activity where you don't want to be interrupted by some random stranger. Mine was a similar case. If the person does approach in a polite way, I will act in kind. If they push, they should expect the woman to push back.

No argument from me for either of you. We're just getting all the data from all the angles here.

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12 Oct 2012, 6:25 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

mds_02 wrote:

The first said her friend would "[b]immediately[/i] turn to them and say; You're ugly" (emphasis mine). She very clearly was not talking about all guys, not just the ones who don't know what "no" means.

Since the topic is essentially women being hit on and enduring unwanted and often looks-related comments,
how is turnabout not fair play? Knowing nothing about someone other than their looks, it prima facie is very likely to have been the reason for a stranger approaching someone, so the entire conversation is colored by that context. Is being called "ugly" any more objectifying than being rated, unsolicited, as attractive by a stranger?

Just curious.

Okay, we can go on and on about the subjectivity of people's experiences forever.

However, out in real life, the vast vast majority of people would take being considered attractive as a compliment. And the vast vast majority would be upset to learn that someone considers them ugly.

Which means that, if a random person were to compliment another random person's looks, it is safe to assume that they are doing so because they wish to make the other person feel good.

It also means that, if a random person tells another random person that they are ugly, it is safe to assume that they are doing so because they wish to make the other person feel bad. I've got no problem with saying that those who purposefully cause negative emotions in undeserving others are as*holes.

One may not be more or less "objectifying" than the other, but that does not mean that one is not worse than the other. Intent matters.

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12 Oct 2012, 6:34 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Um yeah. For real. See, I happen to think that how someone acts out in the world counts for a lot more than what they say on an internet forum.

My opinion; someone who spews a bunch of misogynistic (or misandrist, or racist, or homophobic) s**t online but treats people with respect out in the world is a better person than someone who says all the right things to people they're never gonna meet, but acts like a jerk toward those who are actually around them.

I'm not claiming that all the guys who b***h about women here are saints in real life. But the two are comparable.

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12 Oct 2012, 6:38 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

How you think being on the receiving end can rationally translate into misogyny is beyond me.

How you think venting one's frustration by purposefully being hurtful toward others can be in any way acceptable is beyond me.

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12 Oct 2012, 6:38 pm

mds_02 wrote:

So if I'm out somewhere, stranger X approaches me, and in an uneasy/scared moment I say whatever I feel is necessary to end the interaction (such as-gasp- telling him I find him/her unattractive), I'm an "as*hole"?

ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 6:46 pm

mds_02 wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

How you think being on the receiving end can rationally translate into misogyny is beyond me.

How you think venting one's frustration by purposefully being hurtful toward others can be in any way acceptable is beyond me.

When those "others" decide to approach a random stranger and try to force conversation,
I'd say that invasion of personal space began with them.
There is no "right" to not have one's feelings hurt in an interaction the other party didn't initiate.

Although I do find cute the equivocation between
rudeness to individuals based on their actual actions
and hatred of an entire sex based on how a few of them have responded to YOUR actions.

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12 Oct 2012, 6:48 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Firstly; you may have personal issues that make it harder for you to not act like an as*hole. That does not mean you are not acting like an as*hole. It happens to me sometimes too, that I'll be an utter prick sometimes realizing it. But not realizing it, or not doing it on purpose, does not lessen my responsibility to learn how to behave in an acceptable manner.

Secondly; that's not what I was talking about in the first place. Look at the post I quoted that sparked this argument. The person in question does this consistently, on purpose.

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12 Oct 2012, 6:57 pm

mds_02 wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

I tend to think when you go around trying to initiate romantic and sexual relationships with perfect strangers,
you should consider yourself lucky if a "f**k off" is the worst you get.

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12 Oct 2012, 6:57 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Well, there is the question of what constitutes personal space. For instance, I'd agree that touching someone against their will is a violation of personal space. However, I do believe that it is unreasonable to be out in public and just expect that no one will talk to you. Attempting conversation in a public space is not a violation of anyone's personal space. And if someone views it as such, and sees insults as an acceptable means of defending their (vastly overinflated) sense of personal space, then I have no problem labelling that person an as*hole.

There's no "right" to not be spoken to in a public space.

Quote:

Although I do find cute the equivocation between
rudeness to individuals based on their actual actions
and hatred of an entire sex based on how a few of them have responded to YOUR actions.

And I find it utterly bizaare that you think that what someone says online counts for more than how they actually behave in person.

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12 Oct 2012, 7:00 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

I tend to think when you go around trying to initiate romantic and sexual relationships with perfect strangers,
you should consider yourself lucky if a "f**k off" is the worst you get.

So how do you propose that men find romantic and sexual partners?

'Cause I can tell you right now that guys sitting around and waiting for someone else to initiate those relationships just plain doesn't work.

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12 Oct 2012, 7:03 pm

mds_02 wrote:

ValentineWiggin wrote:

I never said to expect that no one talk to you-
I said if YOU pick some random person to talk to and communicate you wanna bone them or date them,
some people will find it bizarre and act in a disgusted way, because they're truly-disgusted.

You're attempting to impose your definitions of normalcy on other people,
and conclude them "@ssholes" for responding to unsolicited approaches from people they don't know in a way YOU find less-than acceptable.

Quote:

And I find it utterly bizaare that you think that what someone says online counts for more than how they actually behave in person.

It certainly doesn't "count" for more, I just don't automatically assume that when a given person posts something, that they are being untruthful. And to be honest, whether their misogynist posts indicate misogynist actions or no, I find the former repulsive by themselves. Lots of people post racist and sexist crap online- it still causes racism and sexism by perpetuating racism and sexism.

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 12 Oct 2012, 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mds_02
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12 Oct 2012, 7:10 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

no. I'm imposing society as a whole's definition of normal. Which, being basically an average of what the people in that society consider normal, is the only version of "normal" that is of any use when determining how to interact with a stranger. Believe me, it's far from the system I would prefer.

Quote:

It certainly doesn't "count" for more, I just don't think automatically assume that when a given person posts something, that they are being untruthful.

Nor do I. But I see a difference between venting at no one in particular and hurtful statements directed at specific individuals and delivered in person.

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