Loving someone warts and all; imperfections. Thoughts?

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Moog
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22 Nov 2012, 5:54 pm

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Loving someone warts and all; imperfections. Thoughts?


There's no such thing as a wartless person.


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BlueMax
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22 Nov 2012, 6:10 pm

aspiesandra27 wrote:
Depends on what one is prepared to accept as imperfections.


It's more than reasonable, it's healthy to have some deal-breakers that would be reeeally incompatible for us!
;)
(Hope you're feeling better today!!)



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22 Nov 2012, 6:12 pm

Thanks BlueMax :)



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22 Nov 2012, 6:59 pm

"Will, she's been dead two years and that's the sh*t I remember. Wonderful stuff, you know, little things like that. Ah, but those are the things I miss the most. The little idiosyncrasies that only I knew about. That's what made her my wife. Oh, and she had the goods on me too, she knew all my little peccadillos. People call these things imperfections, but they're not. That's the good stuff. And then we get to choose who we let into our weird little worlds. You're not perfect, sport. And let me save you the suspense. This girl you met, she isn't perfect either. But the question is whether or not you're perfect for each other. That's the whole deal. That's what intimacy is all about. Now you can know everything in the world, sport, but the only way you're finding out that one is by giving it a shot. You certainly won't learn from an old f*cker like me. Even if I did know, I wouldn't tell a piss ant like you." - Sean, "Good Will Hunting (1997)"


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22 Nov 2012, 7:08 pm

Moog wrote:
Quote:
Loving someone warts and all; imperfections. Thoughts?


There's no such thing as a wartless person.


perfection is dull. and unattainable. dull and unattainable.



FMX
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23 Nov 2012, 2:19 am

Kjas wrote:
FMX wrote:
Thanks for explaining it, but I don't understand why you don't get to pick and choose what to like and what not to like. You have that choice about everything else in life, so why not this?

I'm still not convinced that a person really loves someone because of their flaws ("flaws" as identified by that person themselves). It seems more likely to me that they love them for some other reasons, but accept them as a complete package and later rationalize that acceptance as liking. But what do I know about such things? :? I wish there was a way to test this experimentally, but that doesn't seem likely.

Alternatively, we might be defining "flaws" differently. If you mean "things that would be flaws (= negative traits) to most people, but are positive traits to me" then that makes sense. ("Overweight" is a good example - most consider that a negative, but a few consider it a positive.) But if you mean "traits that are negative to me" then that makes no sense at all. That implies "I would love him less if he did not have certain traits that I dislike".


You could choose if this were a logical process - but love is not logical.
Love is anything but logical. :lol:


You're right, "choice" was the wrong word. I didn't mean that you'd make a conscious decision about it, simply that you would either like some trait or not. Why would you like some trait in one person when you dislike that same trait in everyone else? I can see why you would accept it, ignore it, perhaps even stop noticing it - but I can't see why you would like it.

Kjas wrote:
For most normal relationships and most people who fall in love - it is conditional.
When the relationship and love is conditional - what you say is true - for those types of people, it is "despite".

But most people aren't aiming for despite. Most will settle for it in the end, but most aren't aiming for it.


I think it's really hard to know what love is like for most people. They talk about it as if it's all the same feeling, but chances are, there's really a great deal of difference between what different people call "love" and they don't realise this, because they don't tend to analyse this stuff so much. But anyway, this is a whole separate topic... There I go trying to quantify the unquantifiable again! I'm reminded of this early xkcd comic:

Image



Kjas
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23 Nov 2012, 6:40 pm

:lmao:
So true!
I love xkcd comics. :mrgreen:

Okay I’m going to put this all in the same place to make it easier.

Most people love conditionally and have relationships that are conditional.
This is the overwhelming majority of people – more than 99.99% of relationships really.
For those, they *will* pick and choose. It will be “in despite of ” for most of the traits that they don’t like.
Those who are further along in the process will actually “accept” these traits – this happens in most really great long term relationships that last.
It can all fall apart because all of it is conditional. One partner may be “accepting” the others quirks, while the other partner may be putting up with said quirks in the “despite” mode.
This usually ends up in breakups and divorce (one of the major factors anyway).
But most people aren't aiming for the ”despite” category - they aim for the "accept" category. Most will settle for it in the end, but most aren't aiming for it.
So for the large majority of people, what you were saying is true – it’s despite and in some cases, accepting.

A very tiny minority have love that is truly unconditional and relationships that are unconditional.
It’s such a small minority that most people never experience it themselves, although a few may see an example.
For these, they don’t pick and choose – they can’t, they are incapable of doing so.
Instead, yes, they actually “love” the traits we are discussing, it really is in the “because” category.
These types of things usually do not fall apart – only circumstances or death manage to separate or end them.
It’s also really rare to meet people like this because most people never accept themselves, or anyone else, enough to even have the possibility of finding such a thing - the amount of security, trust and faith it takes is well beyond what most people are capable of - and that's if you can find the right person.


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Shebakoby
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23 Nov 2012, 7:11 pm

there's "warts", and then there's dealbreakers.



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23 Nov 2012, 9:06 pm

Kjas, so it looks like you're defining 3 kinds of attitudes towards flaws: something like "put up with", "accept" and "unconditional". The first 2 make sense to me. The "accept" state seems like a good thing to aim for and, most importantly, attainable. As for the "unconditional" state - well, maybe I'm taking it a bit too literally here ;), but how do people who love unconditionally pick the person to love? If it's truly unconditional they would just love everyone, wouldn't they, rather like the Christian God does? That would make sense. (Whether it's true or not is another question, but it's logically consistent.) If they love only some people then isn't that, by definition, conditional, even if it's hard to determine what it's conditional on? Or are you saying that their love starts out as conditional, but later becomes unconditional, progressing through the 3 states in order?



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23 Nov 2012, 9:21 pm

FMX wrote:
Kjas, so it looks like you're defining 3 kinds of attitudes towards flaws: something like "put up with", "accept" and "unconditional". The first 2 make sense to me. The "accept" state seems like a good thing to aim for and, most importantly, attainable. As for the "unconditional" state - well, maybe I'm taking it a bit too literally here ;), but how do people who love unconditionally pick the person to love? If it's truly unconditional they would just love everyone, wouldn't they, rather like the Christian God does? That would make sense. (Whether it's true or not is another question, but it's logically consistent.) If they love only some people then isn't that, by definition, conditional, even if it's hard to determine what it's conditional on? Or are you saying that their love starts out as conditional, but later becomes unconditional, progressing through the 3 states in order?


It's not something you need to worry about because of how rare it is.

But they don't get pick the person they love - not the way most people do anyway (that is a whole other topic that I will not get into now).
I'm not saying they love everyone unconditionally - just the one person unconditionally.
You're confusing the concept of love as a whole with it's many applications, with the love that happens in between two individuls in the romantic sense.
(This is why other languages are easier, often they have different words for different types of love - which lessens the confusion)

And Iw ill end this now because this is the part of the topic that people need not concern themselves with. Easier to focus on what you do find and will have to deal with.


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23 Nov 2012, 9:23 pm

Cuckooflower wrote:
I am just interested, out of general curiosity, about this. I don't have anyone specific in mind, and it is not about my own life as such. This is really something that has interested me for a long time.
I suppose it is borne partly out of a feeling that I am unlovable,. . .But really, is it possible to go from feeling like an unlovable monster, to feeling like you are beautiful and lovable?

Do people accept each other's imperfections?

Thoughts, stories, insights......................... ???


Seriously, no matter who you are or what you look like, there is some people in the world who could happily love you. This is not fluff, or woo woo. Oh and btw *big hug* to any person feeling unlovable. You're not and get that thought out of your head. That s**t will mess you up!



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23 Nov 2012, 9:51 pm

Ewags wrote:
Seriously, no matter who you are or what you look like, there is some people in the world who could happily love you. This is not fluff, or woo woo. Oh and btw *big hug* to any person feeling unlovable. You're not and get that thought out of your head. That sh** will mess you up!


The problem isn't necessarily that people like me think we won't find anyone, it's that because we have so many flaws, that we won't end up with someone we would actually love.

In other words, finding someone who'll happily love me (though that is a pipe dream in and of itself) isn't that much of a problem, it's whether I'll love that person back or not.

Unlovable? That's debatable. I sure feel like it all the time.


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23 Nov 2012, 9:57 pm

Kjas wrote:
:lmao:
So true!
I love xkcd comics. :mrgreen:

Okay I’m going to put this all in the same place to make it easier.

Most people love conditionally and have relationships that are conditional.
This is the overwhelming majority of people – more than 99.99% of relationships really.
For those, they *will* pick and choose. It will be “in despite of ” for most of the traits that they don’t like.
Those who are further along in the process will actually “accept” these traits – this happens in most really great long term relationships that last.
It can all fall apart because all of it is conditional. One partner may be “accepting” the others quirks, while the other partner may be putting up with said quirks in the “despite” mode.
This usually ends up in breakups and divorce (one of the major factors anyway).
But most people aren't aiming for the ”despite” category - they aim for the "accept" category. Most will settle for it in the end, but most aren't aiming for it.
So for the large majority of people, what you were saying is true – it’s despite and in some cases, accepting.

A very tiny minority have love that is truly unconditional and relationships that are unconditional.
It’s such a small minority that most people never experience it themselves, although a few may see an example.
For these, they don’t pick and choose – they can’t, they are incapable of doing so.
Instead, yes, they actually “love” the traits we are discussing, it really is in the “because” category.
These types of things usually do not fall apart – only circumstances or death manage to separate or end them.
It’s also really rare to meet people like this because most people never accept themselves, or anyone else, enough to even have the possibility of finding such a thing - the amount of security, trust and faith it takes is well beyond what most people are capable of - and that's if you can find the right person.



This is beautiful. I love it.
It is truly beautiful when you see an old couple where this is so overwhelmingly obviously the case, and they know each other so well, and love each other like the first and last people on Earth. It's wonderful to be best friends with someone and love them so well. To know someone so well.
I like your logical way of thinking in your posts btw :-)

What you say, it kind of reminds me of this poem:

Rosy Ear by Zbigniew Herbert

“I thought
but I know her so well
we have been living together so many years

I know her bird-like head
white arms
and belly

until one time
on a winter evening
she sat down beside me
and in the lamplight
falling from behind us
I saw a rosy ear

a comic petal of skin
a conch with living blood
inside it

I didn’t say anything then-

it would be good to write
a poem about a rosy ear
but not so that people would say
what a subject he chose
he’s trying to be eccentric

so that nobody even would smile
so that they would understand that I proclaim
a mystery

I didn’t say anything then
but that night when we were in bed together
delicately I essayed
the exotic taste
of a rosy ear”


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23 Nov 2012, 10:01 pm

Ewags wrote:
Cuckooflower wrote:
I am just interested, out of general curiosity, about this. I don't have anyone specific in mind, and it is not about my own life as such. This is really something that has interested me for a long time.
I suppose it is borne partly out of a feeling that I am unlovable,. . .But really, is it possible to go from feeling like an unlovable monster, to feeling like you are beautiful and lovable?

Do people accept each other's imperfections?

Thoughts, stories, insights......................... ???


Seriously, no matter who you are or what you look like, there is some people in the world who could happily love you. This is not fluff, or woo woo. Oh and btw *big hug* to any person feeling unlovable. You're not and get that thought out of your head. That sh** will mess you up!



Thanks :)
It's important to focus on loving oneself first no doubt


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23 Nov 2012, 10:01 pm

DialAForAwesome wrote:
Ewags wrote:
Seriously, no matter who you are or what you look like, there is some people in the world who could happily love you. This is not fluff, or woo woo. Oh and btw *big hug* to any person feeling unlovable. You're not and get that thought out of your head. That sh** will mess you up!


The problem isn't necessarily that people like me think we won't find anyone, it's that because we have so many flaws, that we won't end up with someone we would actually love.

In other words, finding someone who'll happily love me (though that is a pipe dream in and of itself) isn't that much of a problem, it's whether I'll love that person back or not.

Unlovable? That's debatable. I sure feel like it all the time.


Understood, I think.

There is the set of all people who you might love, within those is the subset of those who might love you. The concern is that this population varies inversely proportional to a persons amount of flaws? Frankly, this could be true, but even so I would wager there is still plenty of people in the subset. (i have no evidence for this beyond anecdotes)



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23 Nov 2012, 10:04 pm

Ewags wrote:
even so I would wager there is still plenty of people in the subset. (i have no evidence for this beyond anecdotes)



I would agree with that. So long as you put yourself out there and try a variety of things that are your ''fields of fascination'', I would say you stand the chance to meet a variety of suitable people. Kind of


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