Why is chivalry good for anyone?

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Cards and flowers are nice.


Well I may be off on this, but weren't southerners more concerned with etiquette and manners traditionally (Southern Hospitality). Also I think a lot of these customs come from a time when women's clothing was very constrictive and hobbling. And women actually did need the help.

Huh?

What made you think I might not be tolerant?

Ann, as far as manners go, even apart from chivalry, it blows my mind that more people don't adopt good manners in dealings with others. Manners are free, make few demands on the giver, and are usually appreciated by those on the receiving end. In fact, one of the things I lament most about life in modern society is the decline in even the most rudimentary forms of civility, for both men and women alike.

Other than defending themselves against men who are much bigger and stronger, I'm not sure chivalry is about helping helpless women. Most woman are plenty capable of looking out for themselves in their day-to-day affairs. Chivalry is about doing things to show a man's appreciation and respect for women. Chivalry is merely a code of gestures designed to show that a man respects and appreciates a woman.

As far as clothing styles go, I have to agree with you, at least from a practical standpoint. But it wasn't just women who were hobbled by ridiculous styles. Part of being a gentleman was wearing heavy wool suits. In a cold climate such as Canada, this probably wasn't a huge problem. But in the South and Texas, where it gets unbearably hot and humid--and in a time before air conditioning, or even fans and ice--wool clothing posed similar burdens on men. Back then, people's dress dictated their social status. Again, these are more arbitrary customs.

FWIW, I much prefer simpler sartorial standards. These are customs I'm glad were dropped for both women and men. But unlike sartorial standards, chivalry is something that comes from the heart; it is part of who a man is rather than a superficial display of status.

Last edited by Thelibrarian on 03 Jun 2013, 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

It was an interrogative rather than a declarative statement. Are you going to answer it?

Yes, I am tolerant.

But what are the statements you are referring to?

How about the statement pasted below? Why aren't you willing to accord Texans the benefit of the doubt?

"Funny, I imagine Middle Easterns aren't much liked there."


And why did you bring up those statements by your "friend"? Is he tolerant like you are?

This friend lived in Texas plus I've heard from other sources (Online) from inside Texas that Arabs and Middle Easterns occasionally, yet more frequently than other states, face hatred there (While Israel is very highly regarded/supported there). Correct me if this is all wrong.

And yes, the Middle-East is full of intolerance too, so I am not saying my region is better than yours.

Actually, I was in Beirut during your civil war of late 1983 through early 1984. During that time, American civilians and other Westerners were routinely kidnapped and murdered for no other reason than not being Muslim. I'm aware of no similar pattern in Texas.

Having said this, we're getting off-topic.

Well, it's always nice to be appreciated.


Oh our summers get pretty hot in Ontario. I wouldn't get near anything wool in the heat.


Yeah, me too. I think the worst would have been this:



Soldiers in the Napoleonic Wars used to have to wear these around their necks.

Boo, come to Michigan,USA, not Texas. We have quite a few Middle Easterners in Michigan, the one who owns the Liquor Store down the road is pretty cool, he also convinced me to buy a lighter that I was unsure about buying, he was a pretty good salesman. Your welcome here.

Yes, the development of inexpensive cotton clothes has undoubtedly saved countless lives. Wool not only makes the wearer sweat a lot, but in the past could not easily be cleaned, so it was terribly unhygienic. And unlike cotton clothes, wool was very expensive and few people had more than two outfits to wear. Most people spent their lives working very hard in clothes that made them sweat and could not easily be cleaned. Since we don't have to live this way anymore, we have something to be thankful for.

One of my aspie symptoms is that I am very sensitive to heat. Since I have a small ranch in the center of Texas, I frequently have to work hard in extreme heat; I doubly appreciate light, simple clothing. For the next few months I will undoubtedly spend a lot of time fantasizing about jumping into huge mounds of snow

Ann, as far as being appreciated goes, whether or not you approve of chivalry, you seem like a nice lady who deserves to be appreciated and respected, and I hope you never accept anything less.

Last edited by Thelibrarian on 03 Jun 2013, 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

True that, Hezbollah contributed the most in those kidnappings back then and still occasionally kidnapping rival local citizens to this day (ie. such anti-hezbollah post might makes me disappear the next morning, puff!). Their reasoning behind their kidnapping back then (1983) was more related to their extreme anti-west policy than religion.

Are you a journalist btw?

Boo, I'm not a journalist; I run a public library and a ranch. I went to Beirut as a kid while serving in naval intelligence. This is why I was careful to stipulate American civilians. Under the circumstances, it was understandable for Hezbollah to act aggressively toward military forces opposed to them.

Since I'm something of a non-interventionist, I think one of the best things Reagan ever did was to extricate us from Lebanon shortly after sending us. If only Bush would've shown the same perspicacity....

Last edited by Thelibrarian on 03 Jun 2013, 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/09/1 ... e-samurai/

The Knights Code of Chivalry[1][2] described in the Song of Roland and an excellent representation of the Knights Codes of Chivalry are as follows:

• To fear God and maintain His Church (at the time, the Holy Roman Catholic Church)
  
• To serve the liege lord in valour and faith (bravery in battle and trust in one's liege-lord)
  
• To protect the weak and defenceless (to take the side of the oppressed, and those considered "weaker")
  
• To give "succour" (aid & comfort) to widows and orphans
  
• To refrain from the wanton giving of offence (no trolling on medieval websites)
  
• To live by honour and for glory (to increase one's own reputation and the reputation of the order)
  
• To despise pecuniary reward ("Keep your filthy money! I serve for the glory of God and King!"
  
• To fight for the welfare of all ("A good deed elevates us all.")
  
• To obey those placed in authority ("Yes, m'lord!")
  
• To guard the honour of fellow knights ("An insult to one is an insult to all!")
  
• To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
  
• To keep faith
  
• At all times to speak the truth ("No, m'lady ... thy crowne dost not maketh thee look fat ...")
  
• To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun (Leave no task uncompleted)
  
• To respect the honour of women
  
• Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
  
• Never to turn the back upon a foe

Of the seventeen entries in the Knights Codes of Chivalry, according to the Song of Roland, at least 12 relate to acts of chivalry as opposed to combat. Only 2 directly address the behaviour of a knight towards women.


References:

[1] "Knights Code of Chivalry"
[2] "Medieval Code of Chivalry"

Fnord, excellent point. I addressed the aspects of chivalry pertaining to the treatment of women for two reasons: First, that was the topic of this thread; second, this thread deals with chivalric treatment of women because this is what chivalry has come to connote in modern times.

Having said this, I see little objectionable in Medieval chivalry, including the way it was practiced in the antebellum South. I think if more people were to live by this code that our societies would be much better places in which to live.

I do disagree with the statement in your post discounting the value of mythology.