Consent or Rape?

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starvingartist
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11 Jun 2014, 11:32 am

Azereiah wrote:

Play along.
Let them lead.

Let them lead until you know them well enough to understand what their personal cues mean.

It's really, really weird to ask "Do you want to have sex?". It's much better to push your boundaries very carefully and make sure that they're comfortable with it the entire time.

please listen to the advice here from people who've been having sex for years, with various partners--these are the people who are saying "asking is cool, i've asked and been asked before and it did not kill the mood and it's not weird".

it is not at all weird to ask someone explicitly if they want to have sex with you. making assumptions, especially among people who don't read non-verbal cues well, is just a bad idea. it's always better to be honest and up front about what you want--and if you're with the right person, they will appreciate that honesty and directness, and it will help build trust.

Azereiah
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11 Jun 2014, 2:28 pm

starvingartist wrote:

Depends a lot on what kind of person you're attracted to, and if you're with "the right person". I'm the kind of person who gets asked that kind of question on occasion and it does, indeed, kill the mood for me. Entirely.

Either way, either ask if what you're about to do is okay, or let them lead.

starvingartist
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11 Jun 2014, 2:36 pm

Azereiah wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

would you mind explaining a little more, because i really struggle to understand this mentality--i mean, i can understand if the women asking are rude or vulgar about it; someone saying "hey baby, wanna f**k?" doesn't exactly turn me on either so i get that. but if the person is being considerate and polite in the way they ask, how does that kill the mood?

Azereiah
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11 Jun 2014, 2:45 pm

starvingartist wrote:

It causes my brain to skip track, because I don't have an answer until it actually happens. I don't know for a fact if I want to have sex until it's already happening, if that makes sense, and if I'm asked, I will almost certainly say "No", or freeze up and walk off to where I'm comfortable again. I'm certain that many others are the same way.

starvingartist
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11 Jun 2014, 3:02 pm

Azereiah wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

i was always taught that when it comes to sexual relations, honesty and directness is the healthiest policy, because it leaves the least room for misunderstandings. if you have trouble talking about having sex in the moment, would it be easier to talk about it earlier in the date and establish everyone's comfort level before things get heated? stumbling into sexual intercourse without thinking consciously first about whether you really want to be doing it might not be the best idea, that could be potentially dangerous with the wrong person if you change your mind (especially for women, as some men once they get worked up can get angry quickly if rebuffed). the people i have had sex with (with one exception) were all people i chose to be with and i knew beforehand that i wanted to be intimate with them, so i can't really relate to your experience.

Gromit
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11 Jun 2014, 7:42 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:

I just got back from a visit with my brother. He was bragging about his sexual exploits when I asked him whether going up to a girl and asking her if she wants to have sex is an appropriate thing to say. He told me that he usually just invites the girl back to his place and starts kissing and has sex as long as she doesn't protest. Is this correct behavior or is that borderline rape?

It can be borderline rape or outright date rape. The mere absence of protest is not informed consent. A woman might not protest for reasons other than wanting to have sex with your brother. Him switching to sex might be so sudden that she is scared he will become violent if she refuses. She might have had too much to drink to give informed consent.

Unfortunately, your brother's attitude is shared by, depending on where you are, anything from a large minority of men to the majority.

Sherlock03 wrote:

Also, what's wrong with asking the girl directly?

From my perspective, nothing.

tarantella64
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11 Jun 2014, 9:10 pm

Azereiah wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

yeah...here's the thing, Azereiah, I'd be extremely reluctant -- scratch that, I just wouldn't have sex with someone who didn't know, positively, that they wanted to have sex. It's just too risky. It's unlikely I'd be worrying about a rape claim, but I wouldn't want to hurt someone by pulling them into sex they didn't really want. And if you don't know till you're there...that's a little late.

Have you ever worked with a therapist on that one? Just being in touch with yourself so that you know whether you're okay with it, and don't wind up in a bad situation?

sly279
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11 Jun 2014, 9:26 pm

tarantella64 wrote:

sly279 wrote:

tarantella64 wrote:

sly279 wrote:

tarantella64 wrote:

buffinator wrote:

If you ask a girl to have sex the answer is always no, it's equivalent to asking "are you are slut, if so can we f**k?" The mythology around sex is that you should just be "in tune" or "in the moment" i.e. romantic(ish). Even in the context of a long term relationship verbally asking for sex is frowned upon, it's seen as needy or crass and will be replied to with "do you even like me or do you just want to f**k." Unfortunately not only is implied consent the norm but explicit consent isn't even a viable option.

This is absolutely untrue. If a woman wants sex she knows how to say yes (and if she doesn't, then you're best off leaving her alone). Liking sex does not make a woman a slut. And "may I do this" "may I do that" can be incredibly hot if you do it well. It also allows the woman to say, "I'd rather not" if she doesn't.

It goes the other way, too. I never assume a man wants to have sex unless we're already sleeping together, and even then, if he doesn't seem enthusiastic, I'll ask.

Sherlock, if your brother's pre-apartment routine involves drinks, he'd be smart to ask. Nothing at all is wrong with asking her directly.

bump
as I have a hard time reading non verbal communication this is a big concern with me. what is the best way to ask? I tend to ask if it is ok lot when kissing and cuddling. when i had been with a girl. I don't know what the signs to move to other stuff would be without asking :S

That's the point, you ask.

This site's pretty good: http://www.dal.ca/dept/hrehp/get_consen ... o_ask.html

The training seems to be pretty good in Canadian universities, btw. Once had a killingly handsome Canadian guy ask me, in the middle of things, "Do you like having your salad tossed?" Both hilarious and hot. "May I [do this very hot thing]" is also v. sexy. But listen and back off at the first sign of discomfort, freezing, absence of enthusiastic/coy assent, etc.

some of their questions seem like they might ruin the passion which is part of my fear. did his way of asking work without killing the mood?

so like would you like it if i slipped my hand down...? would that be better. I don't know if i could though I get shy during this stuff. saying it over text is ok, but once in person. :S

should i ask every time we make out? or eventually just go for it and stop if she says no.
besides the fwb/ons i had which the whole purpose was for sex. the furthest I've got is cuddling and making out with two girls(separately) I would kiss them and every so often ask if it was ok or if it felt good. even are you ok a few times(when she made sounds) scared me at first. I don't have much expeirnce but one thing i feel confident about is foreplay and getting a woman hot. just wish i could master the how to get a first date.

on another not whats the best i find you super attractive and want you but I don't want sex now, way to say no. I am shy about sex, and while my body wants it I don't want more then cuddling/kissing maybe foreplay the first few times. I am submissive though so if they push it I will likely just. well i hope it never happens.

luckly all the times we made out there were people near by and couldn't , cause both told me they'd wanted to have sex(more polite way of saying it) I view sex more emotionally, i don't want it til i'm ready.

I guess i'm kinda a tease

Sly, I just said he asked while being superhot about it. No, it did not kill the mood, if anything it enhanced the mood, plus I dig a polite guy who cares about what I want and knows how to use the whole languaging function. There was nothing unemotional about it. And as it happened, I had invited him to bed for sex, explicitly and also telling him in actual words that if he didn't want to have sex that was okay too. He was asking about whether doing various things was all right with me, whether I was interested, into it. A couple of the things he wanted to do I didn't want to do, and I said so, and we moved on to other things, no problem.

With practice you'll get over the shyness. It will help if you date women who aren't ashamed of liking sex. And in the meantime you should also practice saying no -- there's a page on that site that can help you learn how. Don't let anyone push you faster than you want to go. All this stuff applies to men and women both.

I'll look into it.

I had one girl that I'm kinda friends with and she wanted to have sex but in order to do so i would have had to leave right away and go strait there sex and leave ish. filled me with so much anxiety. I don't do things like that I think it over. I also prefer to get to know someone and do makeout first. then added into is is My family can't know i have sex and to leave means going through the living room and 50 questions about why I am leaving at 1 am. i mean if i put jeans and shoes on at any point in the day they ask me where you going and why. lucklly It was over the net and my hesitation and anxiety combined with her wanting it fast meant she found someone else. I was also at the time into this one woman and didn't want to do anything to hurt the chances with her. I feel like if i was pressured in person I might give in. I was harrassed at a friends house once this lady kept sitting on me and trying to make me touch her boobs. i kept telling her no and moving but she'd just follow and sit on me again. I wasn't attracted to her and she was married,

the one i did lose it to gave me time and it was planned to happen during the day on her day off.

Azereiah
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11 Jun 2014, 10:15 pm

tarantella64 wrote:

By "not knowing", I mean the thought doesn't even occur to me that I would or wouldn't want to go through with it, and when I suddenly do have to think about it, the answer defaults to "...what?" or "Nope.", or rather, a non-answer.

I've never actually seriously regretted anything that's happened. I've felt like I should have at least waited until I've known the person a bit better first before, but that's not quite the same as actually regretting it happening in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's not about to change either, as I know all of my thoughts and feelings very, very well (to the point that I finished my therapists' sentences for them when they tried to treat me).

Sherlock03
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11 Jun 2014, 10:19 pm

Gromit wrote:

Sherlock03 wrote:

Also, what's wrong with asking the girl directly?

From my perspective, nothing.

This is my prospective. Also, I fricken love the Wallace and Gromit adventures. Great choice!

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SorriorDragneel
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12 Jun 2014, 8:27 am

rdos wrote:

SorriorDragneel wrote:

I have the SAME problem..Especially with one woman who SAID no penetration then was pissed i lost my virginity elsewhere....I TOLD her i CANNOT read even obvious nonverbal ques...Welll i can but it seems there is like a 6-24 hour delay..I will literally wake up going "OOOOOOOOOH SHE WANTED SEX!"

I seem to experience this 6-24 hour delay from time to time, and not only in relation to sex (which I don't even like). It happened to me twice as I looked for a particular girl, saw her (once she even waved at me), but I couldn't link it until after 6-24 hours of analyses of what happened, at which point it was so obvious it was her, but then I had missed the opportunity. I really don't get this, as I'm usually quite quick to connect other things in real life.

With non human things it is easy for me..With people not so much..And yeah the delay is fricking annoying.

rdos
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12 Jun 2014, 2:15 pm

SorriorDragneel wrote:

rdos wrote:

SorriorDragneel wrote:

With non human things it is easy for me..With people not so much..And yeah the delay is fricking annoying.

I'd even say I mostly experience this delay with girls I'm interested in, and not so much in normal social interaction which most of the time works just fine. Sometimes I cannot inject things in conversations, but then it is a matter of timing in the second / minute interval, not hours.

alcockell
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11 Jan 2015, 6:17 am

I suppose what confuses me is that all the instruction I have received (I'm 43) has been a combination of the "flee sexual immorality" Judeochristian rules and the "All sex is rape" connected with the Dworkin/Steinem/French school of feminism.

Basically froze and freezes me up completely and meant I felt EXTREMELY guilty for even processing the thought.

UK schools currently don't teach "consent" explicitly - or they never did back in the 80s - so the model apparently collapses into a "crash the barriers/overpower her defences" idea... and if you wouldn't dream of hurting anyone - it leaves you inert.

Could it be that the JudeoChristian and Feminist consent stacks kinda collapse if taught in an arse-backwards fashion - and the logic trees fail?

LoveforLoki
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11 Jan 2015, 6:36 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

tarantella64 wrote:

Pobbles wrote:

buffinator wrote:

If you ask a girl to have sex the answer is always no, it's equivalent to asking "are you are slut, if so can we f**k?"

Erm.. If unsure, you should ask. At certain times of the month you might get a 'no' for good reasons, but that leaves three consecutive weeks (plus change) of positive answers (if you play your proverbial cards right) even if you aren't promiscuous.

Oh honestly, unless you're trying to screw a teenager or a religious cult member, we also know how to say "I'm on my period." (A remarkable number of people don't care, just fetch towels.) So long as you don't react with "EWWWW" all should be well. (Flashing back to a guy who described the woman who relieved him of his virginity as "bleeding like a stuck pig." <- how not to phrase it)

I certainly would not want to have sex in that state, not only is the bloody stuff a bit gross but CRAMPS! somehow I don't think having sex would help that, if anything i feel like it would make it worse.

Actually orgasms relieve period cramps for many women and it can also help with PMS symptoms like headaches.

Also on a side note in regards to the other posts, it is not weird to ask if your partner is ready to have sex. I should know, I have been having sex for over 22 years.

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The_Face_of_Boo
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11 Jan 2015, 9:33 am

lol, have you noticed how tarantella and starvingartist had never addressed to the female users who were saying this is normal and only confronted male users for that?

hale_bopp wrote:

What your brother does is normal.

What you mentioned is not.

cathylynn wrote:

it's fairly unusual to actually ask permission. no, i wouldn't consider what your brother does to be rape, as long as he would stop if she seemed uncomfortable or said, "no" or "stop."

XFilesGeek
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11 Jan 2015, 10:01 am

^ Please refrain from discussing banned users.

Thank you.

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