Is it unfair of me to ask my gf for a prenup in this case?

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Sweetleaf
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18 May 2016, 9:14 am

nurseangela wrote:
GiantHockeyFan wrote:
In my case, my Fiancee comes from a much wealthier family and as a result has a significantly higher number of assets than me. Not in the OPs level, but enough to live comfortably. I flat out told her (before I knew of all this) that I would never sign a pre-nup agreement: if I wasn't able to completely trust her (and vice versa) I had no business getting married. Sounds to me like this is scratching a much deeper issue and you need to resolve THAT first.

I personally don't feel too bad she has more assets: I have more skills, more education and a (slightly) higher income. My ex was spoiled rotten, never worked a full time job and never even had a license. THAT would have been a nightmare and no pre-nup would have saved me!


You had an ex? That would have stopped me from marrying you if it had been an ex wife. You have double the chances of divorcing again. No prenuptial with you, no marriage.


You act like having an ex is like having a disturbing criminal record or something horribly unnatural, in reality it happens to lots of people and it's not a character flaw.


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18 May 2016, 9:22 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well I wanted to have a meeting with a lawyer to confirm all this but she is so upset with me now, that she will not allow the time for me to make an appointment and go over it with a lawyer, once I find that that seems good for it.

She is saying either I get engaged to her now, without a prenup, or she will break up with me. By now, I assume I have a few days time to make a decision before she will loose hope.

If this is what I am faced with and she is not willing to discuss the details of a prenup, or not wait for me to speak to a lawyer to find out what my finance options are legally, then what should I do?


I don't like threats. I'd break it off. She's the one with nothing so she has nothing to lose. That would royally piss me off not even letting you see a lawyer. Who is she - you're mother? Screw that. You saved all of this money so you make sure you're protected. Any confident woman wouldn't be that upset about a prenuptial if they have something to bring to the marriage themselves.


Money and assets are the only things one can bring to a LTR or marrige? What a sad, sad mindset.


Try having a decent job and working years to build something and then come back and talk to me.

Most of my Co - workers are divorced. Divorces are bitter. Like I said in a previous post, a lot of the nurses pay their spouses alimony. That's why I would like someone who is my equal then both bring into the marriage the same thing - no problem then because both have something to lose. I would like a nice romantic relationship too, unfortunately the "honeymoon" phase only lasts about 2 yrs at most then reality sets in.

I also thought that Aspies are more logical - look at all the divorces happening. And if a person has been married and divorced, chances are good they will divorce again according to statistics.


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nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 9:27 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
GiantHockeyFan wrote:
In my case, my Fiancee comes from a much wealthier family and as a result has a significantly higher number of assets than me. Not in the OPs level, but enough to live comfortably. I flat out told her (before I knew of all this) that I would never sign a pre-nup agreement: if I wasn't able to completely trust her (and vice versa) I had no business getting married. Sounds to me like this is scratching a much deeper issue and you need to resolve THAT first.

I personally don't feel too bad she has more assets: I have more skills, more education and a (slightly) higher income. My ex was spoiled rotten, never worked a full time job and never even had a license. THAT would have been a nightmare and no pre-nup would have saved me!


You had an ex? That would have stopped me from marrying you if it had been an ex wife. You have double the chances of divorcing again. No prenuptial with you, no marriage.


You act like having an ex is like having a disturbing criminal record or something horribly unnatural, in reality it happens to lots of people and it's not a character flaw.


Depends on what the reason is, but yes, once I get married (if ever) It's for life unless they beat me, or drug use or cheat. To me, a divorce (depending on the reason) means the person wanted an out instead of working on it and divorce was the answer - an easy way out.


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18 May 2016, 9:40 am

PennyFri wrote:
I don't love the idea of prenups. But her reaction is about 50 times worse than a prenup. Looks like the prenup was a good idea after all! It's brought out the true colours of your future bride - 'manipulative' seems to one of her defining qualities.

You're not seeing an emotional reaction from her. What you're describing sounds like a well thought out response fuelled by emotional blackmail. She's threatening to take your children away from you before they're even born (tubes tied threat) - imagine if you had ACTUAL children with this woman! And no - being a mother probably wouldn't 'soften' her :(


I never thought about that, but you have a point.


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nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 9:45 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
GiantHockeyFan wrote:
In my case, my Fiancee comes from a much wealthier family and as a result has a significantly higher number of assets than me. Not in the OPs level, but enough to live comfortably. I flat out told her (before I knew of all this) that I would never sign a pre-nup agreement: if I wasn't able to completely trust her (and vice versa) I had no business getting married. Sounds to me like this is scratching a much deeper issue and you need to resolve THAT first.

I personally don't feel too bad she has more assets: I have more skills, more education and a (slightly) higher income. My ex was spoiled rotten, never worked a full time job and never even had a license. THAT would have been a nightmare and no pre-nup would have saved me!


You had an ex? That would have stopped me from marrying you if it had been an ex wife. You have double the chances of divorcing again. No prenuptial with you, no marriage.


You act like having an ex is like having a disturbing criminal record or something horribly unnatural, in reality it happens to lots of people and it's not a character flaw.


You try to make me out as being a bad person because of the money aspect, but the fact is that most divorces happen because of money.

One other thing is that I don't just think of this in a one-way direction (looking out for myself), I have some debts I would like to pay off right now, but haven't yet. I would EXPECT myself to pay those debts off if I were to be getting married and have them paid off BEFORE the marriage. I don't want to saddle my husband with debt that I have accrued and I would expect the same from him. Money is a HUGE thing and definitely needs to be discussed before marriage.


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GiantHockeyFan
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18 May 2016, 10:25 am

nurseangela wrote:
You had an ex? That would have stopped me from marrying you if it had been an ex wife. You have double the chances of divorcing again. No prenuptial with you, no marriage.

Luckily it was only an ex-Girlfriend as I wasn't THAT stupid. I remember how she was irate at me on our one year because I didn't give her a ring... and we were holding on by a thread at this point. I foolishly stayed for 3 months longer, even after almost being arrested and/or evicted due to her crazy, irratic behavior. Cops should have arrested me for being so stupid but I digress. Luckily the damage was relatively minor but you shouldn't be so judgmental: literally half my coworkers have been married twice and in all cases, they seem happy with the second marriage each time. In other words I learned a VERY valuable lesson that cannot me taught in any school and am a better person for it.

Quote:
One other thing is that I don't just think of this in a one-way direction (looking out for myself), I have some debts I would like to pay off right now, but haven't yet. I would EXPECT myself to pay those debts off if I were to be getting married and have them paid off BEFORE the marriage. I don't want to saddle my husband with debt that I have accrued and I would expect the same from him. Money is a HUGE thing and definitely needs to be discussed before marriage.

As part of getting married in her church, they required a marriage retreat. One of the main subjects is about finances and we were one of the only couples who did not get uncomfortable: we already had combined accounts at this point and before that, we sat down and showed each other everything: assets, debts (neither has a dime other than a mortgage), income, etc. we both have similar attitudes towards saving, buying things, etc and that is VERY important to a relationship. My ex was a trust fund child who had no concept of money but loved to complain about how poor she was.... while lying around and doing nothing all day.

I do chuckle looking back about how a date I went on literally ran from me after the first date. Turns out she was $40,000 in debt. SHE ran from ME? :lol: I understand not everyone gets the lucky breaks in life but I have NO sympathy for someone who foolishly spends money like that.



nurseangela
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18 May 2016, 10:35 am

GiantHockeyFan wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
You had an ex? That would have stopped me from marrying you if it had been an ex wife. You have double the chances of divorcing again. No prenuptial with you, no marriage.

Luckily it was only an ex-Girlfriend as I wasn't THAT stupid. I remember how she was irate at me on our one year because I didn't give her a ring... and we were holding on by a thread at this point. I foolishly stayed for 3 months longer, even after almost being arrested and/or evicted due to her crazy, irratic behavior. Cops should have arrested me for being so stupid but I digress. Luckily the damage was relatively minor but you shouldn't be so judgmental: literally half my coworkers have been married twice and in all cases, they seem happy with the second marriage each time. In other words I learned a VERY valuable lesson that cannot me taught in any school and am a better person for it.

Quote:
One other thing is that I don't just think of this in a one-way direction (looking out for myself), I have some debts I would like to pay off right now, but haven't yet. I would EXPECT myself to pay those debts off if I were to be getting married and have them paid off BEFORE the marriage. I don't want to saddle my husband with debt that I have accrued and I would expect the same from him. Money is a HUGE thing and definitely needs to be discussed before marriage.

As part of getting married in her church, they required a marriage retreat. One of the main subjects is about finances and we were one of the only couples who did not get uncomfortable: we already had combined accounts at this point and before that, we sat down and showed each other everything: assets, debts (neither has a dime other than a mortgage), income, etc. we both have similar attitudes towards saving, buying things, etc and that is VERY important to a relationship. My ex was a trust fund child who had no concept of money but loved to complain about how poor she was.... while lying around and doing nothing all day.

I do chuckle looking back about how a date I went on literally ran from me after the first date. Turns out she was $40,000 in debt. SHE ran from ME? :lol: I understand not everyone gets the lucky breaks in life but I have NO sympathy for someone who foolishly spends money like that.


Everyone is judgemental and it greatly depends on how their past has gone. People take marriage too lightly these days and divorce can be an easy out. As you pointed out, a lot of your Co - workers are married a second time which means they had to go through a divorce and you have no idea how those went. I would think that men would be more up for a contract of this sort because usually they are the ones taken to the cleaners.

Another question - why are guys attracted to women of the sort like your ex girlfriend? I'm a no drama mama and just can't find a Hunny. It seems like the more drama a woman is the guys just can't get enough. I haven't been able to understand that.


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18 May 2016, 10:36 am

This is basically an issue of relationship inequality, relationships can often be complicated where there is an inequality. For example if one is much more attractive than the other, the lesser attractive may feel insecure and worried their partner will leave them for someone else. In the OP's instance it is the more-common inequality of finance. As with the case of the lesser-attractive feeling insecure and threatened, here your lesser-asseted partner is feeling threatened by your making this inequality explicit. Getting back to the looks analogy it would be like you introducing her to your friends as "Here is my partner, she is much less attractive than I am".

A lot of her rage probably comes from this insecurity and she is dressing it up as something else, that you don't trust her or whatever. She probably does feel some genuine hurt too that maybe you don't trust her, or you see this as a relationship that is probably going to fail so you're protecting yourself just in case. Or maybe she *is* thinking about herself, thinking that if the marriage fails she'll at least get something from it.

So you have all of those emotions....but you also want to be practical and protect yourself too and those two things really are at odds. Looking at it practically, you must know lots of people (maybe even yourself in past relationships) that have been in a relationship they were sure would last forever, but didn't. And there is a very real chance you could be severely disadvantaged if things do go wrong and end up bitter. Again I'm sure you know lots of people that has happened to.

There is no magic solution to these things, I'd definitely give her some time to see if she calms about it and come around to the idea more after the initial shock. It does seem like she is demanding everything be done on her terms though and is blackmailing you to get it. She demands no pre-nup but I bet in a divorce she'll demand half your money too. Shouldn't there be some compromise? Also if she thinks ultimatums are the way to run a relationship maybe you should see how she feels about being the subject of them herself? Tell her that unless she gets a steady job and career you're not going to marry her. I bet she'll have plenty to say about that, I bet she loves to give ultimatums but not be subject to them herself. Also I bet if it was her with the greater finances she'd want a pre-nup and would tell you to be a man and stop complaining about it.

Then there is the elephant in the room no-one is talking about....she is reading your emails, snooping, invading your privacy. Maybe she is threatened by this pre-nup as she is projecting her own lack of trust onto you?

This is a tough one, so good luck, but I think letting things settle for a while is probably the best thing right now.



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18 May 2016, 10:51 am

Chichikov wrote:
This is basically an issue of relationship inequality, relationships can often be complicated where there is an inequality. For example if one is much more attractive than the other, the lesser attractive may feel insecure and worried their partner will leave them for someone else. In the OP's instance it is the more-common inequality of finance. As with the case of the lesser-attractive feeling insecure and threatened, here your lesser-asseted partner is feeling threatened by your making this inequality explicit. Getting back to the looks analogy it would be like you introducing her to your friends as "Here is my partner, she is much less attractive than I am".

A lot of her rage probably comes from this insecurity and she is dressing it up as something else, that you don't trust her or whatever. She probably does feel some genuine hurt too that maybe you don't trust her, or you see this as a relationship that is probably going to fail so you're protecting yourself just in case. Or maybe she *is* thinking about herself, thinking that if the marriage fails she'll at least get something from it.

So you have all of those emotions....but you also want to be practical and protect yourself too and those two things really are at odds. Looking at it practically, you must know lots of people (maybe even yourself in past relationships) that have been in a relationship they were sure would last forever, but didn't. And there is a very real chance you could be severely disadvantaged if things do go wrong and end up bitter. Again I'm sure you know lots of people that has happened to.

There is no magic solution to these things, I'd definitely give her some time to see if she calms about it and come around to the idea more after the initial shock. It does seem like she is demanding everything be done on her terms though and is blackmailing you to get it. She demands no pre-nup but I bet in a divorce she'll demand half your money too. Shouldn't there be some compromise? Also if she thinks ultimatums are the way to run a relationship maybe you should see how she feels about being the subject of them herself? Tell her that unless she gets a steady job and career you're not going to marry her. I bet she'll have plenty to say about that, I bet she loves to give ultimatums but not be subject to them herself. Also I bet if it was her with the greater finances she'd want a pre-nup and would tell you to be a man and stop complaining about it.

Then there is the elephant in the room no-one is talking about....she is reading your emails, snooping, invading your privacy. Maybe she is threatened by this pre-nup as she is projecting her own lack of trust onto you?

This is a tough one, so good luck, but I think letting things settle for a while is probably the best thing right now.


Good answer. I agree with all of that except for giving her any more time because she would have already pissed me off too much and honestly, she scares me and I'm not even a guy.

About the emails and snooping, I'm a pretty open person so my Hunny would be free to read any of my things. It would make me uncomfortable if they were hiding emails and texts from me - not that I'm going to snoop, but they also shouldn't be afraid of me looking at their phone for a phone number or to look at the internet when my phone or computer wasn't avail. One of my Aspie friends told me that if they are going to cheat, then there is nothing you can do to stop them. I've tried to adopt that philosophy.


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18 May 2016, 10:52 am

It seems to me that you have a huge obstacle in the road and do you think that maybe pre-marital therapy with an experienced psychologist might help? I don't know how you can marry with a huge thing between you. It seems to me you have to stop and clear the road. Maybe with professional help.



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18 May 2016, 11:12 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Money and assets are the only things one can bring to a LTR or marrige? What a sad, sad mindset.


Nothing wrong with being careful with money. Being poor isn't fun.



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18 May 2016, 1:15 pm

nurseangela wrote:
Another question - why are guys attracted to women of the sort like your ex girlfriend? I'm a no drama mama and just can't find a Hunny. It seems like the more drama a woman is the guys just can't get enough. I haven't been able to understand that.

Well, I could write about this subject all day but I will try to keep it to the topic at hand. Basically, I was (unintentionally) subconsciously programmed for her just like my brother was with his wife by our parents. What's worse is that I swore up and down I would NEVER EVER end up with such a girl but I did. I lived through it and can barely understand it either! My best guess is that (being a almost certainly Borderline) she made me feel absolutely amazing at first. She was also very rational, caring and smart at first until I found out it was a façade. Just like my mother, I was programmed to be a people pleaser and that woman are mentally unstable by nature. I also had very low self-esteem so can you imagine I was a sitting duck for her. The endless string of 'losers' she dated made me feel sorry for her and I desired to rescue her. Of course, I am now one of those 'losers' and she still stalks my online profiles almost 2 full years later. I can only imagine what she will think once I officially tie the knot :lol:

I now realize that is extremely common for us Aspies to end up in these relationships and can only conclude that we are destined to end up in them. I have tried to warn others here when I see the road there are going down and they refuse to even listen to me and I believe the OP might be in a similar situation given the emotional blackmail. Still, I think if you NEED a pre-nup like my brother did, it is a train wreck waiting to happen.



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18 May 2016, 1:25 pm

nurseangela wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
GiantHockeyFan wrote:
In my case, my Fiancee comes from a much wealthier family and as a result has a significantly higher number of assets than me. Not in the OPs level, but enough to live comfortably. I flat out told her (before I knew of all this) that I would never sign a pre-nup agreement: if I wasn't able to completely trust her (and vice versa) I had no business getting married. Sounds to me like this is scratching a much deeper issue and you need to resolve THAT first.

I personally don't feel too bad she has more assets: I have more skills, more education and a (slightly) higher income. My ex was spoiled rotten, never worked a full time job and never even had a license. THAT would have been a nightmare and no pre-nup would have saved me!


You had an ex? That would have stopped me from marrying you if it had been an ex wife. You have double the chances of divorcing again. No prenuptial with you, no marriage.


You act like having an ex is like having a disturbing criminal record or something horribly unnatural, in reality it happens to lots of people and it's not a character flaw.


You try to make me out as being a bad person because of the money aspect, but the fact is that most divorces happen because of money.

One other thing is that I don't just think of this in a one-way direction (looking out for myself), I have some debts I would like to pay off right now, but haven't yet. I would EXPECT myself to pay those debts off if I were to be getting married and have them paid off BEFORE the marriage. I don't want to saddle my husband with debt that I have accrued and I would expect the same from him. Money is a HUGE thing and definitely needs to be discussed before marriage.


I didn't say you're a bad person, but strongly disagree money is the only thing to bring to the table. My parents got divorced over money, or rather my mom feeling my dad didn't have enough of...so I dislike the mindset money is the most important thing in a relationship and it's a thing for someone to abandon an S.O they supposedly care about over.

Of course it is important to discuss finances before marriage, but probably best not to consult lawyers and start the process for legal documents without speaking to the person you're going to marry first...as it kind of screams 'I don't trust or respect you enough to talk about finances and resource pooling/division before taking pre-emptive legal action upon myself.' IDK it would be a huge turn of for me at least.


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18 May 2016, 1:35 pm

Barchan wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Money and assets are the only things one can bring to a LTR or marrige? What a sad, sad mindset.


Nothing wrong with being careful with money. Being poor isn't fun.


How do you get 'You shouldn't be careful with money' out of money isn't the only thing one can bring to an LTR or marriage?

Of course you should be careful with money, though there is no guarantee it will get you or keep you out of poverty.


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18 May 2016, 2:01 pm

GiantHockeyFan wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Another question - why are guys attracted to women of the sort like your ex girlfriend? I'm a no drama mama and just can't find a Hunny. It seems like the more drama a woman is the guys just can't get enough. I haven't been able to understand that.

Well, I could write about this subject all day but I will try to keep it to the topic at hand. Basically, I was (unintentionally) subconsciously programmed for her just like my brother was with his wife by our parents. What's worse is that I swore up and down I would NEVER EVER end up with such a girl but I did. I lived through it and can barely understand it either! My best guess is that (being a almost certainly Borderline) she made me feel absolutely amazing at first. She was also very rational, caring and smart at first until I found out it was a façade. Just like my mother, I was programmed to be a people pleaser and that woman are mentally unstable by nature. I also had very low self-esteem so can you imagine I was a sitting duck for her. The endless string of 'losers' she dated made me feel sorry for her and I desired to rescue her. Of course, I am now one of those 'losers' and she still stalks my online profiles almost 2 full years later. I can only imagine what she will think once I officially tie the knot :lol:

I now realize that is extremely common for us Aspies to end up in these relationships and can only conclude that we are destined to end up in them. I have tried to warn others here when I see the road there are going down and they refuse to even listen to me and I believe the OP might be in a similar situation given the emotional blackmail. Still, I think if you NEED a pre-nup like my brother did, it is a train wreck waiting to happen.


The old rescue the damsel in distress. :mrgreen: Guys really need to get over that one - it only leads to problems.

I don't think the prenups are needed when people marry young because you both usually have nothing and build it together. The problem comes if one marries later after they are settled. This topic scares me because I just can't see working and saving and having to just hand it over to someone because they want a quick out. It would be devastating.


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18 May 2016, 2:28 pm

As a female who is currently in a relationship with similarly unequal finances, I told my husband I would sign one before we got married (about six months ago). He refused.

It's unfortunate that your gf was so upset by her discovery.
I suspect in her position, I would have been upset as well - but due to perceived dishonesty on your part.
On the flip side, I research everything before I talk about it with myself, much less with someone else.
In your position, I would have done what you did.

If her position is actually that you want one because you are anticipating divorce, she's adopted a stance based on an error of logic... which generally indicates an actual basis in emotion.
Offer to go to counseling. Any reasonably skilled counselor should address the emotional issues there, and help separate them from the legal issue.

If you feel this concession would be worth it, see about having your lawyer write in a financial settlement for her in case of divorce that scales with dependents based on parental duty allocation. I don't know about Canadian courts, but US courts pretty generally agree that a spouse who has been primarily caretaker of the home/other spouse/children should get a financial settlement of some kind until she/he can develop job skills and enter the labor market. However, even if it is the legal standard in your part of the world, having an agreement in black and white might make her feel more comfortable.

You were not in the wrong nor unfair to her.
You should apologize for the injury to her feelings and ask her for criteria that define what you should be talking about with her - I think those are always good practice in a long term relationship when the other person's feelings are hurt. It's an "empathetic" apology and clarification for the future.

Don't feel obligated to back down.
There is nothing in a prenup that makes a couple more likely to get divorced, and nothing in not having one that gives additional security in a relationship. Besides, you being forced to set aside your principles and desires to make a wedding happen will also have a negative effect.

I wish you the best.