Its just so frustrating

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I actually think this conversation is a perfect example of how AS and NT conversation gets lost in the translation. The irony of it all is not lost on me.

I'm going to stop now, because I haven't the slightest idea how to explain it so I will just say good luck to you.

I suspected you did this on purpose because you wanted to make the point you just made. You want to say aspies pick on details to get off topic? Well you were the one who did this first.

General picture: Combination of various things, both facial expression or not
You: ...... facial expression .....
Me: Repeating "facial expression" after you
You: No its not facial expression (so who was splittling hairs here? You did)
Me: Noticing the way you contradicted yourself in the way you were splitting hairs. Sure, I was splitting hairs too at this point, but you did this first.
You: Accuse ME of splitting hairs because of my Asperger

Unlike the point you are trying to make, I am perfectly fine using "facial expression" as an umbrella term, or as an example or whatever. But then you can't go and correct *ME* for using it wrongly. YOU WERE THE ONE WHO CORRECTED ME FIRST, so apparently there WAS a need to split hairs, so why am I am not allowed to do the same? You can't have it both ways!! !

Also, as I pointed out, YOU used the terms "facial expression" first as well. So you are telling me you used it loosely but I took it literally. Well, how do you know I took it any more literally than you did? It's because you made an ASSUMPTION that people with Asperger take things literally. And then you blame ME for the assumption YOU are making.

You said people with Asperger can't see a big point. Okay I do see a big point: you were mad at your boyfriend so you wanted to take it out on someone else with Asperger, so you wanted to "stage" a "typical" conversation that you find frustrating. Thats what it felt like.

I wasn't telling her to shut up. I am all for two way communication, but then she has to allow me to respond without dismissing what I am saying. But its like the moment I didn't respond in the way she wanted to she was like "okay you just are not going to get it, its useless to talk to you". So she was the one who told me to shut up, not the other way around. I was simply defending myself against what she said.

Pope and mother theresa is actually a good illustration of something I "don't like" in terms of how people view me. Yes, people view pope and mother theresa in a positive light; but they would never consider either of them getting married. In other words, they are not fully humans but rather an "icons" representing certain ideals, that don't have life outside of those ideals. Now, nobody will say "they" aren't fully human, because caring about others is a very human trait. But lets replace them with autistic savant: people would view autistic savant in a very positive way too, if he comes up with some great discovery or whatever, but they won't view him as fully human. Well I don't consider myself a savant (yes I am gifted -- as evident from the fact that I learned calculus at 13 -- and I am proud of it -- but that won't make me a savant) but I suspect people view me that way and I find it frustrating.

Now, in case of pope and mother theresa, they *chose* to be that way, so its different. If I decided to *choose* to look like a savant for a while, it might be quite cool actually (well provided its just for a while, but I digress). But I don't want to be "forced" into certain roles I never "chose" to be a part of, thats the difference.

Oh by the way, I have nothing against the idea of being famous: in fact, ever since I was 9, I had a dream of becoming famous physicist; I realize its probably not going to happen, but I am still trying so that I can say I tried my best. *HOWEVER* that doesn't mean that I want to fit a stereotype of someone smart who is totally socially inept. Einstein was famous and he had girlfriends.



If it was intellectual, why would I be so upset about being left out? Thats part of what confuses me: when people are "telling" me I don't feel the things I know I feel, do they think I have multiple personalities, or what is it?

There are plenty of things people do that I have no inclination to do: going to the bars, drinking, etc. But then there are other things that they do that I find enjoyable. Of course I had to "see" it before realizing that I wanted it (when I was a teen I was all burried in math and physics books so I didn't think I wanted friends because I didn't notice anything that did I missed out on) but once I saw it and realized I want it, then yes I want it, and its not just intellectual.



I do see the point you are trying to make. But you have to keep in mind, that I had girlfriends before, so I know the difference between settling and actually liking someone. For example, in case of the girl I had last November, I was settling and I knew it (I didn't like that she was sickly, infertile, and didn't get higher education). On the other hand, the girl I dated three years ago was Miss Nebraska and a devote Christian, so I liked her better. Yet I didn't like the fact tha she wasn't educated either. And the girl I dated 10 years ago, she was science major, so that was good, but she had PCOS. I ended up staying with her out of pity. Sure, pity isn't love, but thats not the selfish need either. So the point I am trying to make is that I do see the difference between different girls that I had and different motives of being with them.

That is actually part of the reason why I wish I were to take that girlfriend 10 years ago to a bible study. Because people assume I never had a girlfriend and thats why they assume I have no idea what I am talking about. They also probably assume that my past girlfriends were imaginary; I know for a fact I wouldn't ever make up an imaginary girlfriend, but I have no idea whether people believe me.



In case of that girl whose facebook exchange I pasted here, we actually did have something in common. We met in church, and during one of the church functions she noticed I wouldn't eat pork, so I told her I come from Jewish background but I decided to believe in Jesus so I am combining both practices, which is called Messianic Judaism. Now, at the time we met, she had a boyfriend, and her boyfriend was Messianic as well, and he was trying to get her to keep Jewish law which she didn't want to. Eventually they broke up over it, but after the breakup she decided that actually he was right, and she "should" keep Jewish law. So she started to learn to keep Jewish law on her own, and she wanted to talk to me in order for me to answer her questions about it I guess. Now, her family don't like her keeping Jewish law, so she goes against her family in trying to keep it. And she even told me that isn't it interesting that we both go against our families (I go against my Jewish family and she goes against her Christian family) in order to be Messianic (combination of Judaism and Christianity).

Now, the way the topic of dating came across is that, at some point I slipped a mention of one of my ex-s and she was like "wait a second, you had a girlfriend?" So then I asked her why is it that she assumed I never had a girlfriend. She said its because I never mentioned her. I then said that of course I never mentioned her: she broke up with me a year before I came to that church. Then she said she didn't know it. So then I asked her how come out of the two possibilities (a) I didn't have girlfriend at the time and (b) I never had a girlfriend my whole life, she decided it was (b)? After I pushed that point, she finally admitted that she didn't think I could love someone that way. So then I asked her did she think I was gay? She said no, its quite obvious from the way I look I am not gay; but she just didn't think I can be in love like that in general. So then I asked her did she assume that people with Asperger are incapable of feeling love? She never answered that question other than telling me that she stands corrected. So then I told her that I am concerned that other people have the same kind of misconceptions that she does, and what to do to make them not have those misconceptions. She told me about my clothes being wrinkly and I been asking her how to "undo" the poor impression I made due to wrinkly clothes. She also said if I like some girl I should ask her out. I then said that no I don't want to ask the girls out, I want them to be the ones asking me out, and I don't know why wouldn't they.

In any case, after we had the above exchange I started complaining to her about my poor social skills from time to time. Not too often, I mean we would only chat like once in few weeks, and when we did chat I would complain to her about things. So one of those conversatons is what lead me to that exchange I just pasted.

Anyway, now that I told you this context, you can't exactly say that I have nothing in common with her. Obviously, when it comes to religion, I do and she knows it. Its true that I settle on OTHER girls because I just want to date someone. But in her case it wasn't the case. I guess she might ask me that if I, admittedly, lied to the girl last November that I liked her when I didn't, how does she know I am not lying to her? Well, thats why I brought up something that we have in common which SHE KNOWS that we do. So why can't she believe me that yes I lie to other girls just to be with them but in her particular case I actually happened to like her for religion thing?

Wow.

If this is how you talk to women who are trying to help you when you don't understand something, then this may have something to do with why you are single. The hostility is very off-putting and if it's how you talk to women IRL as well it would make them wary of you.

First of all, you are making an assumption that I talked to her this way because she is a woman. That wasn't the case at all. On a social anxiety message board there were males who similarly insinuated that it is useless to talk to me, and I wrote angry replies to them as well, for the same reason.

Speaking of this correspondence, I wasn't angry at her for helping me, I was angry at her when she said its useless to talk to me, for apparently no reason. I mean, re-read the conversation. I wrote two or three posts where I, calmly, tried to clarify what I said and figure out where we misunderstood each other. Her only response was "its too complicated to explain because you have Asperger". So it sounds like a passive aggressive way of punishing me for what her boyfriend is doing.

If you are being told by different people, both men and women, that you're talking to about this that they don't feel like you're really listening and therefore it's pointless to try to talk to you about this, then maybe they are on to something? You say it sounds passive aggressive, but what if it really is just people trying to tell you that they don't feel like you're really listening and taking in what they're saying when they try to talk to you?

It sounds like there is a lot of misinterpreting going on at your end of other people's behaviour, and when people try to explain their behaviour to you you don't listen to them but rather fill in the blanks with your own misinterpretations (like assuming passive aggression when there is none.) This is indeed very frustrating and may be why people are responding to you the way they do and giving up trying to communicate with you. You talk about two-way communication, but I don't think you're really having two-way communication. It's like you're responding to your own misinterpretations instead of what people are actually saying to you, so the communication is not really going both ways.

The reason people at the other message board felt like its useless to talk to me is because I asked them to explain to me the logic of people that ostracize me, and when they did, I started pointing out the ways in which it was unfair and argue with them. In retrospect I do see where I was wrong: asking for months on end about fairness of social rules won't change them nor help me fit in; so I should be asking instead what to do about it.

In any case, what happened in this post is totally different. I mean, I don't have any fixation or strong opinions in terms of whether "facial expression" is a good example of "non-verbal behavior". It seemed like she was the one who made a big deal about it, and when I asked her to clarify exactly what was it she was making a big deal of, she said its useless to talk to me. So, like I said, I was perfectly willing to either use the terms losely or not, whatever she prefers. All I wanted was clarification (and why not ask for clarification regarding something she found important enough to bring up?) but then all of a sudden she says I won't listen anyway; and then I got angry in response to that, not before.

Are you sure Face_Of_Boo was implying you were telling her to shut up or could he possibly have been expressing shocked amusement at your post?

To me, the wide eyes of the cat along with the fact that only the tips of the fingers are touching the lips communicates "Oh my!"

Okay so last time, really... and I'll put this as simply as I possibly can:

You had said that it was simple to take care of your girlfriend when she was sick; it was harder when she wasn't because you did not know what to do

When people are in a relationship, there is usually this unspoken expectation that partners will do certain things for each other and we do not have to ask for it to be done

Right or wrong, this is usually an NT expectation (and usually women have these expectations, but men have them to a certain degree too)

When one partner (in this case the Aspie partner) doesn't automatically do those things, the NT can mistake that for being that the AS partner doesn't love or care about us

It's a misinterpretation on both sides because the Aspie partner DOES care, he just needs to be told how to act or respond. The NT mistakes it for uncaring and selfish, because in HER mind, she thinks he should not have to be told what to do.

And THIS was my point about the facial expressions. All NTs all over the world have similar facial expressions and similar social cues and similar social reciprocity that we can ALL read for the simple fact that we're NT. It's a body language. When someone doesn't understand that body language, (or in this case why a partner needs to be told how to reciprocate affection), it's a failure on both ends because the AS partner doesn't understand the social cue and the NT partner doesn't understand HOW they can NOT know what the social cue means.

I haven't the slightest idea how else to explain it. To me, it's like trying to explain what a color looks like to someone who was born blind. And I don't mean this in an insulting way either. It's difficult to get inside someone's mind when their minds works in a completely different way than yours does.

I am pretty sure people don't think you are 'less than human' I do not think that is what most people think about people who have autism. Also though don't see why you are so hung up on social status, if yours isnt very high what makes you think if a woman did express interest in you she would be one with higher social status? Also what if she doesn't think it makes sense to 'validate' all of your emotions...maybe she'd think you need to deal with some stuff yourself, she may be willing to listen but you can't expect constant validation no matter what. A girlfriend isn't just something to validate you and give you better social standing(which seems like if that is an expectation you'd likely see woman who wouldn't raise your social status as undatable even if one expressed interest). I mean yes that would be using her....what would she get out of the relationship?

Basically seems you mostly want a relationship for selfish reasons, but haven't given much thought to what you would put into the relationship...or why a woman should want to date you.

Also the woman at the church group may not have known what to say about your past relationships, sometimes people don't know how to respond to that kind of thing. I mean what exactly where you expecting her to say or do? Perhaps she thought you were just venting or reflecting on things but not really asking for advice.

Also it doesn't seem like anyone was implying you are undatable, also did you ask about if anyone could help you meet people? Maybe that single woman did...also though how do you know someone found her someone to date, and she didn't just find them herself? What exactly did you say about your past relationships?...if it came off negative you may have given the impression you're taking time away from dating due to past experiences. It may do you some good to quit assuming what people think of you...because some of it doesn't really make sense.

They must assume you are undateable because a married women who invited you to a church group didn't know what to say about your relationship history? I doubt she was thinking 'oh how cute, he's undatable'

Thanks for taking time to explain.

Maybe thats where we were talking about different things: you were talking about non-verbal cues in a relationship and I was talking about non-verbal signals some girls were giving me whom I never dated nor talked to. Now, the reason you were talking about relationship is because you were responding to what I said about my ex who was sick (whom I dated for two years). So, in this sense, I went off tangent, since we both were talking about relationships and then I brought up some other girls. The reason I went off tangent is that I thought it was a similar phenomenon, my not picking up social cues; but I guess even though underlying thing is similar, perhaps details are different, hence our subsequent miscommunication.

I am still not sure regarding the distinction you are making between the times when you want to use "facial expression" and the times when you don't. My guess is that if I am talking about long term relationship there would be more opportunities for other types of communication to play a role and thats why facial expression is less relevant. But thats just my guess.

Not really, I used that as an illustration of a body language just in general, not relating it to any one specific thing or something specifically in a relationship, long term or short term. I used the example of facial expressions and body language as an example of non-verbal ways that NTs communicate with each other that transcend verbal languages, even when we're not necessarily conscious of it. NTs can read it; Aspies generally can't. Which results in difficulties in communication for both the NT and the AS.

That is not all love is about, it is not all tenderness and affection. Also no one said anything about being a 'macho man' just that most women probably won't like it if you need constant emotional validation, it doesn't mean you can never show when you are upset or desire their emotional support through difficult things. But if they feel like you're fragile and will break if they aren't around to validate and comfort you that's going to to just cause a lot of stress and possibly make them resent you.

Also you may want to think about what you have to offer in a relationship, like why should a woman pick you. If in the past you've been told by exes they don't feel loved when they are with you, than even if you did love them, you were not showing it in a way that they could understand or reciprocate. So you might want to work on some things yourself like learning how to show that, if its a complaint you have gotten more than once.

I still don't think its much good to focus on social status either as far as a relationship is concerned. You never know who you will meet and potentially develop a connection with, if you get to focused on status you might miss opportunities with women who are interested but that you don't perceive as having high enough social status to raise yours. Then you may end up lonely, surrounded by people you don't really have anything in common with all in the name of status and popularity.

I mean you say you don't want to act like a macho man, well focusing on status and wanting a girlfriend who can act as a trophy to raise it is pretty typical macho man behavior, so consider that.

I remember a girl on a dating site who asked me if I am capable of falling in love because Sheldon isn't.



I am not sexist so I don't see anything wrong with a woman in a relationship having higher social status than man. As a matter of fact, it puzzles me why some guys don't want to date girls with higher social status. To me, it feels like they are shooting themselves on the foot. Even if the guy himself has high social status, it will only help him to date a girl whose social status is even higher. Of course, he won't be as desperate about it as me, but still it feels like he is shooting himself on a foot.



But remember in one of my other replies I mentioned a girl whom I was taking care of when she was sick. So I do have a capacity of caring about others. But I can't care about abstract people whom I don't know. Thats why when I think about potential girlfriends I think of it in a selfish way; but that doesn't mean that I would remain selfish once I do date them.



Okay, by this point I brought up more than one church group.

As far as the woman at the Adventist church group (who is married, and who was excited that I knew her all the way back in Michigan) what happened was that we had a Bible study and she mentioned how her marriage goes so well because she is utilizing a certain biblical concept (I no longer remember which one was it); and then, in connection to this, I brought up that same biblical concept in the context of trying to see why my past relationships fell apart, and then she ignored it. So the fact that she talked about her own relationship yet ignored when I talked about mine, thats what made it feel that way.

But now if I talk about a different girl, the one I met in church a couple of years ago, who is single, and with whom I had the facebook conversaton I posted, then like I said in my other reply: when I mentioned to her one of my past girlfriends, she said "wait a second, you have a girlfriend?" so why would she be so surprised about it? Her own answer was that I never talked about her, and I said that it was because we stopped dating a year before I came to that church. But then she couldn't really answer my question as to how come she assumed I never had a girlfriend my whole entire life as opposed to just assuming I was single at the time I went to that church. She said she stands corrected, but the question remains: what do everyone else think whom I never had a chance to "correct"?



Okay, what do you mean by ask? Say directly "would you please find a girlfriend for me?" Wouldn't that be a bit too direct? I did something a bit less direct: in particular, I expressed my frustration about the fact that I am single. Its true though that 90% of the time when I express my frustration, I talk about "not having friends" in a gender-neutral way. But still, what about the remaining 10% of the time when I mention that I am single?

I guess maybe this connects with the fact that, in fact, I don't have friends. Usually people ask good friends to help them out in this way, but in my case I am talking to people that are just acquitances.

Either that, or maybe they genuinely do miss that 10% behind the other 90%. Like for example, a couple of years ago I been complaing to a cashier about "not having friends" and then she introduced me to a guy, which caused me to obsess whether she thought I was gay or not. So are you saying I "shouldn't" sound so gender-neutral and should outright talk about "girls"? I guess it would feel awkward -- although like I said it might be because I don't know most people well enough to have that kind of conversation.



Because she told me about it. Basically I was in a car with her, she was taking me home, and I been complaining to her about not having friends and being single, and then she brought up some examples from her own life and this was one of them. In fact she haven't yet met that guy: she basically said she was supposed to meet him in few days because someone wanted to introduce them.