Surely they would see it as harmless?

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1) Which of the following ways should I interpret this statement:

a) They don't think I should date anyone at all.

b) They just don't think I should date people much younger than me because people my own age would know how to address my obsessiveness while people much younger wouldn't, due to power difference.

The reason I am asking this question is that, if the answer is "1a", then this would imply that they think I should die single and childless. After all, you told me towards the bottom of your message, that they assume that as an older adult I am set in my ways. So if they think that I can't date the way I "currently" am, and they "also" assume that the way I "currently" am I will stay that way my whole life, then it means that they assume I won't be able to date the whole rest of my life. From my point of view, marrying and having children is one of the important ways of being fulfilled as a person. So, if the answer to the above question is "1a", then they basically are assuming that it is fine and dandy I will live my whole life unfulfilled and my genetic line will die out.

2) As far as the "ways in which it would play out in dating situation" are you referring to

a) Me having a lot of non-sexual arguments which I won't let go of

b) Me pushing the sexual contact that they don't want. As in, since I "can't take a hint" with things that are not sexual, I might not take a hint with things that are sexual either

If I look at my relationships, then I know for a fact it has always been "2a" and never been "2b". But since they don't know me, could it be that they might be assuming it would be "2b"? If so, it feels so unfair since I never been guilty of "2b" before.

3) They told me its because of my age. So, if I assume that, instead, it has more to do with the things you are saying, does it mean they lied to me?

If the answer to the above is "yes", does it mean that they believe that if I am doing something wrong then it is morally okay to lie to me? As in "two wrongs make it up to right"? I know you addressed this at the bottom of your email where you said that my age, which goes with perceived power, is what made it difficult for them to be honest with me. But could it be a combination of both things?

4) They said that I might make those women "make wrong decisions". They were apparently referring to "wrong" decisions to date me or have sex with me (I don't believe in sex before marriage but they don't know that). But if I look at my own track record, then not letting go of things tends to push women away and cause them to reject me. So how were they thinking that "wrong decisions" would be just the opposite to that? Are there any girls that "wrongly" find the overly-persistent behavior attractive? I guess if I were to try to answer my own question, I can say the following things:

a) Maybe they think I will hide my behavior for a time, wait until I successfully attract someone, and then start acting this way after that. This, however, leads to an obvious question: how come I didn't hide it the first day I was there? Were they thinking the first day I just couldn't help but then I was planning to go on a hiding after that?

b) Maybe I will be forward with that behavior. This will cause a girl to reject me. But then I will get really upset and keep insisting. And the girl will make a "wrong decision" to change "no" to "yes" just to make me feel better?

c) Other (Please explain)



This leads me to ask a question on a different tangent, pertaining to a different Christian fellowship group (although at the same university). The question is: why did the guy leading that fellowship group explicitly told me that the purpose of the fellowship should be God and not finding dating? Was it, again, him lying to me?

Here is what happened at that other group.

So during the get-to-know each other night, they played the following game. Each person was supposed to write one thing about themselves, without putting their name on it. Then one person who leads this thing is supposed to read those notes and people were to guess who wrote what. There was one note where someone wrote they came from Nigeria. There was only one black person there (who happened to be a female). So it was logical who wrote it. I said "the n****r is from Nigeria". Now, I was "not" trying to be racist. The reason I said it is that

a) Its the word play. The word "Nigeria" and "n****r" have similar roots

b) I wanted to point out how obvious the answer to that puzzle is. As in, "even the word similarity shows how obvious it is"

c) Its funny to do something that I know is inappropriate. So it doesn't have to be racist. Anything else inappropriate is similarly funny. For example, I used to pull fire alarms back in high school.

Of course, I did not tell them "a, b or c" (I thought they were self-explanatory). I just said one single sentence "the n****r is from nigeria" and left it up to them to do with it whatever they will. They totally ignored me, as if they haven't heard it. Then I repeated it but they still ignored it. Then finally when someone else answered by naming her name they took that other person's answer.

Then after that game was over I asked why did they ignore my answer. The reason I asked is because there were other situations elsewhere where people ignored me WITHOUT my purposely saying anything inappropriate. So I was concerned whether those OTHER things that go with Asperger (such as the physical appearance, tone of voice, body language, etc) added to the reason they ignored me. As in, if someone else were to say the same thing I did, would they ignore that other person or would they answer? Or if I were to say something other than this, would they still ignore me (like I was ignored at all those other places)?

The person that led that group said that we should meet up for a coffee and he will answer that question then. He wanted to arrange by email when to have a coffee. He did, in fact, follow up and asked me a question by email when is the best time to have a coffee at. But when I got that email I was busy doing something else so I didn't reply to it. And sometimes it happens that when I don't reply to emails right away I end up not replying to them at all, because they are marked read and I am looking for unread ones.

But one thing I did notice is that I weren't getting any more invitations from that group. So after few weeks went by I asked that person why didn't I get invited. He told me that he wanted to meet up for coffee before he would invite me anywhere else. That was a bit of a surprise, because this is not the way he presented it at first. The way he presented it at first was that he could meet for a coffee to answer my questions (which would be for me not for him) as opposed to meeting up for coffee so that he is comfortable having me around (which is for him not for me). But in any case, in response to that message I arranged the meeting for coffee.

Then during the meeting for coffee I explained to him that it was a joke, and thats when I made the points "a", "b" and "c" above to explain the joke. He said that he understands it was a joke now that I explained it (he even used the term "cultural joke" and the use of the word "cultural" was his, not mine), but he suggests I don't do it any more because other people might not understand it. He also told me that none of the people that were there that day ever came back, and said he thought it was due to what I said. I told him that while I understand it is inappropriate, I feel like the reason they overreacted to me is because of my Asperger. In particular, I kept pointing out what he just said about nobody coming back as a proof of my point, because if someone without Asperger were to do the same thing I did, I just don't see how a group of 40 people would all decide not to come back. Yes its possible that maybe 5 people would decide not to come back, but why would all 40 of them do that? Just because of 1 person? That seems quite extreme. He responded to that by saying that its not as crazy as I said it seems because there are multiple groups and it often happens that people would try out different groups in the beginning and then choose to settle on just one. I then told him that he contradicts himself because if it wasn't a big deal he wouldn't have mentioned it. He told me he honestly doesn't know what was going on in their minds and his guess is just as good as mine, he is just asking me not to make racist jokes again. I agreed that I wouldn't, so he said then we are good and I am welcome to keep coming.

However, instead of saying have a nice day I decided to use that opportunity to talk about the other social difficulties I was having. In particular, not that long prior to that, I made a post on an aspie forum about dating girls in their early 20-s, where most people attacked me assuming I was sexual pervert. So I decided to ask that guy whether he thinks I was treated unfairly (this is the post I shown him: https://www.autismforums.com/threads/ge ... -me.16590/ ) He said he will read it and come back to me with his opinion. I haven't heard his opinion about that thread. Which was fine with me: I am used to the fact that most people wouldn't go out of their way to read something that isn't specifically relevant to them. The part that was "not" fine, however, is that I noticed that I "still" weren't getting any invitations. One of those days I ran onto him on campus and asked him why I still weren't beign invited, even though we already had a coffee. He told me that it is because I made a post about dating 20 year olds. Well, first of all, in that thread I wasn't talking about "20 year olds" I was talking about women "in their 20s", which is a big difference, since it includes 29 year olds. And also I didn't understand why he had issue with that, which got me right back to what I was originally trying to ask him when sending him that thread. The other thing that irritated me is that when he mentioned "20 year olds" he used funny voice. From what I noticed later his voice was always similar, so maybe he wasn't trying to make a funny voice, maybe it was just his natural voice, but it sort of felt that way, as if he was playing a game with me or something, and it made me mad. When I talked to him about it further, he told me two things:

(i) The purpose of the Christian fellowship is serving God rather than dating.

(ii) I shouldn't put so much thought into my dating anyway, I should leave it up to God.

And this is how the reason why I am bringing it up: Remember you said that the purpose of the fellowships is to help people pair up? So do you think he lied to me right here?

In any case, with regards to point (i) he said that he does it to everyone not just me and he does it to both genders too. And then he said that there was one time he had a girl in that fellowship who kept asking all the guys to have sex with her, he told her to stop asking for sex, but she kept persisting so then eventually he told her she wasn't welcome. Now, he didn't say that it was a hypothetical. He said he had an actual girl that did it. So do you think he lied to me, since it is just hard to believe there would be this kind of girl? Now, remember how he said that none of those 30 people ever came back after I made that joke. Do you think that was a lie too? And was he enjoying it as he was telling me those lies, as evident by his funny voice?

With regards to (ii), I asked him whether he thinks I should die single and childless. He told me that "some people" are meant to be that way, and brought up Apostle Paul as an example. So then I pressed him whether he was suggesting I was meant to be that way. He told me that he doesn't know I should ask God. So I pointed out that "I don't know" often means that they "do" know, its just that that answer is something I don't want to hear. He was evasive about this point. However, he met up with me for one on one Bible study where he used some Bible verses to stress the point that I should leave things like that up to God.

In any case, as far as that group was concerned, he told me that he isn't asking me to be single my whole life, all he is asking me is not to try to look for women at his group (alghough of course it is up to me what I would do elsewhere). I told him I agree with this. So he then said I am welcome to come. However, when he was telling me I was welcome to come he also mentioned that they had mens retreats that he was looking forward in seeing me there. So I guess I could make it in two ways. On a good side he was making concrete suggestions so it didn't feel like he was about to flake (yet he did). But on the bad side, why was he *specifically* choosing to mention men retreats of all things? Was he implying these were the *only* things I was welcome to go to, in order to make sure I don't associate with women in his group?

In any case, after that conversation I still didn't get any invitations to his group. So then after another few months when I again ran onto him I asked him why wasn't I still not getting invites. He told me that he sent me that one invite after our conversation, and I didn't show up, so he assumed I was not interested. I told him that the reason I didn't show up is that I had something school related I had to do (I don't remember if it was homework or test or what) so I didn't have time that particular day. But that doesn't mean I never have time. So he said that he didn't know it, but now that I told him he will invite me to other things.

Despite him saying this, I still haven't received any more invitations. So then about a year later I sent him facebook message asking him about this. And he told me he just forgot. So I asked him why was I not on his mailing list. He told me he doesn't have a mailing list. He just sends individual emails manually to make it personal. I asked him how can he remember all those people he has to email? He said "apparently not too well" since he didn't remember to email me. Still, despite my "reminding" him with this conversation, he STILL didn't remember to invite me again.

So do you think he lied with any of the following statements:

(i) The purpose of Christian fellowship is serving God rather than dating

(ii) People in general shouldn't put any effort into finding a significant other. They should just focus on serving the Lord

(iii) None of the people that were in that room when I made that joke ever came back, not a single one of them

(iv) There was that girl that kept asking guys to have sex with her

(v) That he actually thought that when I couldn't make it that one time it meant I wasn't interested, as opposed to him just using it as an excuse

(vi) That he doesn't have a mailing list and emails everyone one by one

Speaking of (i) and (ii), this is the reason this whole thing is relevant to what you wrote Remember you wrote that the hidden purpose of those fellowships is to match people up? So does this imply right there that (i) and (ii) were lies?

QFT, this is a level of detail I don't the time or desire to engage in. And that is, no doubt, the best way to sum up your interactions with the members of the groups: they didn't have the time or the desire to figure it out. They felt uncomfortable and, rather than spend energy figuring it all out, they latched onto the first clear "off" fact they encountered and used it. That is what people do: they grab the easiest, most available answer, assume it is good enough, and then stop investing mental energy into figuring things out further. I can only speculate on their reasons, not answer you with certainty, but I can see the pattern and extrapolate what they MIGHT have done.

Nothing I write is more than speculation. I personally do not believe they were intentionally lying to you or trying to mislead you, but you were putting them into positions they didn't know how to deal with. To my eyes it is all clearly because of your ASD: your level of detailed analysis isn't something NT people do, but they had no way to know the issue is actually ASD related, nor is it likely it would have made a huge difference if they did. It isn't their job to figure out all the ways your social interactions send up red flags or go wrong, and while they were willing at first, you pushed things beyond what they were comfortable attempting to deal with. I can say with certainty that they have not thought any of this through at the level you have.

You have a depth of questions suitable for a professional or close family member to help you with. I've done this depth of back and forth my son, and there are others I would consider doing it with, but I don't know enough about you and can see us ending up in a discussion that takes hours and hours without ever satisfying you. While people you encounter may have trouble naming what it is that makes them uncomfortable with you, my guess it really is as simple as you ultimately taking much more emotional energy and time from them than they are willing to give. They just don't know how to put that description on it. "Red flag," "high maintenance," and similar terms are often used without fully analyzing what leads to them. You can work on this idea of "letting go" with a professional, and should. It is an important life skill.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 26 May 2021, 8:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.

For someone who insists on such a deep analysis and list of questions, you've ignored an important word: I said TEND to have. That does not mean you can or should assume that any specific organization does have. TEND is NOT "all," yet your mind seems to have read "all."

You can't take what I clearly state as personal thoughts and observations and turn them into absolutes from which you try to develop working conclusions. I wrote a lot of "maybes." I can never give you better than that.

But I can say your writing shows a clear pattern of reading in too far and not being able to let go. You can work on these issues.

Everyone is deserving of love, but we all need to learn how to be PARTNERS before we can truly thrive inside relationships. Acting as a partner is difficult if you stay overly focused on your needs, and not those of the person you are engaging with. Work on it.

Congratulations on working on a second PHD, by the way. I wish you much professional success.

And there you go again. There could be "grooming" or "perving" going on regardless of the man's age. Instead of writing "creepy old weirdo," why not just write "creepy weirdo"? Creepy behavior can get you punched at any age. (I had the honor of punching a much younger guy who was being a [hands-on] creep to my partner.)

I understand what you are saying that people get tired of my going into too many details so they find reasons not to associate with me. And in fact I have lots of examples, outside of the ones listed here, where it’s the case. So I agree with you it describes the bigger picture of my life.

But still: what about that group where I came an hour early. They told me I wasn’t welcome because of my age. Yes, my interaction with them was dominated by my extreme over-analysis that would drive most people crazy. But fact remains: when they invited me to that 2 on 1 meeting to tell me I am not welcome, they started off by citing my age and insisted that’s the only reason. Why is that?

So the question is: could it be that it is really an interplay between obsessiveness and age? You said my obsessiveness made people uncomfortable so they looked for “first clear off” that they could find, which happened to be age. But why are they looking for “first clear off” rather than “first relevant off”? Or are they assuming age is somehow “relevant” to obsessiveness? If so, how?

You also mentioned terms “red flag” and “high maintenance” in the same sentence. But to me they seem like different concepts. You can have low maintence person that’s dangerous and high maintenance person that is perfectly safe. So why do others assume these concepts are related?

I was using the terms as examples, not as associates.

I don't know the answers to most of your questions because I wasn't there and I'm not them. I would suspect that age is equated to a power imbalance. Since people are taught to respect their elders, it can be difficult for younger women to stand up for their own feelings against an older man they start to feel uncomfortable with. I don't know if it is that, it is just my speculation.

I've dealt recently with several people who encountered problems due to lack of awareness how their age and status had shifted the power dynamics with people they like to associate with. Maybe my brain is just locked there because it has come up so much recently. But as we age and advance through life, power shifts do occur that we don't realize we're a part of. The problem is that such ignorance leaves us with a lot of potential to unknowingly and unintentionally cause harm. Since I don't know you I can only speculate, but maybe the combination of being on a second PHD, being male, and having crossed 40 may have moved you into a box that makes them feel you hold power they don't. A sense of unequal power would jive quite well with the explanation they gave you, IMHO.

It isn't easy realizing you are no longer considered a part of the groups you still view as your peers, but it is something most of us have to confront at some point.

By "power imbalance" do you mean that this imbalance can be used to manipulate the younger women into sexual activities, or do you mean non-sexual aspects of it?

If you look at some responses to this thread before I responded, you will see some of them were saying that it only pertains to sexual sphere. So does it mean it is the same in my case too or is my case different in this regard?

Because I know for a fact I did not intend to manipulate anyone sexually. But do you think others thought that I did?



I don't mean to intrude, but if you don't mind sharing, can you tell me what happened?



What makes it harder in my case is that, due to Asperger, I missed the opportunity to do what other people do in their 20-s. So I would like to make up for it.

If I were to socialize normally in my 20-s like everyone else, then I would have made friends, and found lifelong partner back then. Then me and my friends were to age together, and then I won't really feel like I was taken out of my social circle, since I would age together with my group of friends.

But since I didn't socialize normally in my 20-s, I never made any friends or even acquitances. So I kept trying again year after year and it kept not working year after year. So it is really frustrating when I feel like now the door was shut and I would never experience what I always wished I could experience.

I can't speak for people I don't know, but I suspect that this general angle could have been the worry. I doubt they worried so much that you would manipulate, because that would suggest intent I don't imagine these people being willing to ascribe to you, but that situations could end up with a woman feeling pressured even if you never intended it. Hence, "bad choices."



Not really my stories to tell.



This is definitely a conundrum, and not one uncommon for individuals on the spectrum to find themselves in. I don't want you to see the door as shut. When it comes to relationships, the door of possibility never fully shuts and locks. People meet and couple up at the oddest ages and stages. What I'd like you to do is work on the "letting go" concept that has been mentioned several times in this thread. That continues to strike me as your single strongest impediment to a relationship. Don't worry about what waits after, or if the work is worth it. The work will make you a better and happier person, and while I do believe it can increase your odds of finding a relationship, what it can do for you will be worth it on its on.

If you want to share any of my observations with your personal friend who had the second Christian group, feel free. Perhaps if he understands the conundrum better he may decide to be more willing to see if you can be in group without making anyone uncomfortable. But before you consider trying to get into any groups, I think you have to commit to learning and respecting boundaries, this whole "let it go" thing.

What made you think he is my friend? He doesn't know me outside that group, and my contact with him is limitted to those interactions I listed in the previous posts.

Why does it matter? I didn’t think that hard about my word choice. I didn’t go back to the posts to see what the actual relationship was. You assume far more intent behind words than was meant. You are over thinking.

It's a question of reciprocation. Do the girls reciprocate or ignore him? Sustained unreciprocated flirting is not only harassment, it's also kind of pathetic.

Quite right. He sounds like a pathetic old w*nker and he will never be their equal.

I didn't assume "intent". I assumed a misperception. But this misperception is rather big one. If he is my best friend that would be quite different form the situation if he is almost a complete stranger.

Even though you agree with DW_a_mom that he won't be their equal, it seems like the two of you are emphasizing the opposite aspects of him being unequal. DW_a_mom seems to say he is being in a position of power, while you seem to say that he is being pathetic, which is just the opposite to that.

Now, if we are looking at the aspect you are focusing on, this leads to an excellent question, that is directly related to the fate of most aspies. Why blame the victim? From your point of view, you portray him as the victim. Yet you then turn around and say that this is why he harasses them, thus implying they are the victims. So which way is it? And similarly with aspies. Aspies are victims yet they get blamed for being victims.

Not exactly. If someone is pathetic that doesn't necessarily make them the victim. In this case he's pathetic due to his own actions.

Age is not the action though. So he wants the same thing that younger men want, but he is being denied it due to his age, which is something he has no control over.

In terms of power balance, which party would you say has more power in this situation? The older man or the younger women? DW_a_mom seemed to be saying the older man, but you seem to be saying the younger women. So if you believe the younger women are the more powerful party, why is it you resent the older man so much? A less powerful party can't do much harm to a more powerful party.