Why I wait...

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Because "being friends" puts you in the "friendship circle"?
Also, he has discussed that this is already his method of dating.

Really though, you can't let one bad relationship taint your dating experiences as a whole.
Yes, there are people out there that are only out for themselves. You learn to recognize them and leave 'em in the dust. 3 years is a bit long for a single failed relationship, no telling how many opportunities you let by during that time. I'd hope you learned something about relationships in general though that allows you to move forward with the effort and make some more progress.

Relationships can hurt, sure, but are they worth the risk? If not, stay single. If they are, be aware of the dangers, watch for cliffs, and try to be available.

If what your doing isn't working, then you need to change it somehow.

She wasn't out for herself though. If anything, the rejection was mostly my fault anyway (I had no practical experience with women whatsoever at the time). Ironically, the depression that I was going through ended when I found out that our political ideologies were almost diametrically opposed to each other (she's a big conservative, and at the time, I was as close to flaming liberal as you could get). About a week after that incident, I found out that, while I still have feelings for her, they no longer were in the foreground, and I was able to get on with my life. Had she accepted, finding that out would have been the cause of a breakup and would probably lead to the same result (a long-lasting depression, only later in life, with no endpoint to it). Had I waited to find out what she was like instead of blindly charging into the situation, I would have found out about her political ideologies alot earlier (since as a friend she would be more likely to divulge that instead of the awkwardness that existed between us after the fact), and I would never have gotten into a deep depression to begin with...

I don't know about others, but I found that particular age to be depressing anyway. I've had very little experience with dating, especially when you consider my age. It was a new one on me though, that friends always stay just friends.

ToS, while the impact your experience has had on you is evident... please consider that it is a sliding scale. Launching your whole self into a relationship with a relative stranger is fraught with potential problems. A first date, in many cases, can be like getting to know someone... with experience, you get a stronger sense of what you are looking for, what information you need to move to a second date. Each subsequent one will progress further along that path; it may plateau, it may even slide, but there will be a trend to indicate where things are headed. Your process may go more slowly, or take more reps of experience to get familiar, but I think over time it will develop into a sense of direction without a lengthy and niche-defining process. People are reluctant to allow people to change - while it is more often seen when the 'black sheep' comes clean, or when someone tries to change/better themselves, but it also applies to the transition between friendship and relationship. It can take a remarkable jolt to shift an impression of one to the other... while I have had relationships blossom from friendships, they are unpredictable and unscheduled - not something to pin your hopes on.


M.

Quoted for the fact that what you just said is awesome.

now let me add my two cents.

Toad. I know next to nothing about women, and most if not all of my friends are women, (and no, I'm not gay, I'm straight) and a few men. I can learn all I need to, but it will go out the door in a heartbeat when they do something totally and proactively weird and off the scales that I thought I had them figured out. In other words. A girl you think you like? Bah, don't, not until you spend a day with then and realize their quirks and so forth. Then, if you still think you like them and you're friends with them, wait a while and think it over Logically because in no uncertain terms can you come to the realization that if you want to date this girl, will your mind be willing to accept that if things get....well, weird. You don't know a girl well enough til you spend two days with her, one on a regular day, and one when she's going through her monthly period, trust me, things will be different.

There is no way that you can figure out anything, unless you put yourself through a process of why you want to date said girl that you are interested, because frankly, most relationships shouldn't last as long as I've seen some do. College is a great place to watch that happen, because at least, unlike high school, there is far less drama when said couple breaks up, which is easier on everyone.

Here's a few simple rules that I've come up with during my time at college.
1) Don't date anyone in the group you hang out primarily with, because A) it will lead to awkwardness when break up, and B) it's the whole group dynamic that will be affected, not just you two when you start to date
2) Don't date unless you're willing to start having all her friends randomly showing up at your place on campus all hours of the night or day asking you too hang out, unlike high school that doesn't happen, but in college(at least to the extent that I've seen it happen) you don't just get the girl, you get the friends as well
3) Take her out at least once or twice a month(and not to {if the campus has one} any place on campus) to eat, at some swank and fancy place, because, and trust me on this, the fact that you're willing to go out of your comfort zone, when you'd rather eat on campus where you like the food there, there is a difference between dating and going out on a date.

Most people with number three(only three rules, easy as pie) don't seem to get that. Those that I know who have, I am proud of, because of that, the relationship will survive because they take the time to get away from it all to go spend time with just each other, even if it's only for an hour or so, it's still worth it.

and above all, here's my advice. don't go looking for relationships, sometimes, they'll come looking for you. Trust me, relationships, they're not worth it, unless you are absolutely committed to wanting to work to make it so. Because if you do something half assed to upset her, and you know it was your mistake, then you're screwed, because it's on campus and you did it, and it's a small campus, pretty much within the hour whatever you did (cheated on her, got drunk{if she's not into drinking} said something about her that irritates you to a friend, who will tell another friend,) you will be screwed majorly.

That's why my advice is simple. Read "when God writes your love story," by Eric and Leslie Ludy. It's a great book, I'm doing what they did, and when it's time, it'll happen.

Gamester, thank you for your kind words. I appreciate what you wrote, even if I do not directly agree with much of it... although I fully agree most relationships linger past their expiration date. From what you describe, there is a sense of over-wrought thought in your perspective as well. May I ask a question - do you enter a relationship with the understanding that you can and may well be hurt in the process? Accepting that is essential, in my mind, to being able to stand up through the rough points in the process. The dating process is like an analog knob instead of a digital selection - it is a gradual process that more often fails than succeeds. Kind of like research projects. Reading your rules, they seem to be structured from a spectrum-based perspective - it protects familiar ground and preserves balance. While looking for relationships as a sole purpose rarely succeeds, being open to them helps. Me - I'm dense. My partners have told me so, as some of them have had to almost hit me with a hammer to get me to realize their interest. But being available to planting a seed is preferable (again, in my mind) to laborious pre-examination that ultimately leads to paralysis.


M.

Whoa... "expiration dates"? I thought marriage was supposed to be for "eternity"...

But anyway, I don't understand how people can be so "courageous" (or just stupid?) enough to date people they hardly even know. Yeah, one of the purposes of dating is to get to know each other more, but still... it's an attempt to "start something." Why would you want to start something with a stranger? The very idea of trying to date every random woman you find physically attractive until you find the "right one" seems very stupid and dangerous. You might say it's worth it, but I see it as a phenomenal waste of time (and money.) A lot of people think they find the right one but end up divorcing/breaking up because it turned out they were wrong. Why can't there be a little more direction in this process?

Relationship does not equal marriage, Cyberman - nowhere was that suggested. Some relationships are pushed past the point where they are healthy and become abusive/toxic. That leaves scars on both people.

Perhaps the suggestion is misunderstood - this is not shotgun/machine-gun therapy by hitting as many targets as possible. What is meant is that by taking only a friend route, the road will be inherently more difficult and unpredictable, and that it is only through experience that realistic qualities will be gleaned - theory is startlingly inept when it comes to matters between two people. Be selective, but be open to learning in practice instead of in one's own head.


M.

Not actually on the spectrum anymore. These have just come from watching so many relationships go sour (and dating a mormon....)

*hands a beer in sympathy* Been there; traumatic experience on the latter especially.


M.

I commute to college, so I don't even see people often enough to really get to know them.

As for weirdness, since I'm already very weird and awkward person to begin with, awkwardness does little to faze me (although nervousness can hit me big time if I'm not prepared for it...)

*Takes beer, looks at it and hands it back* it's okay. she was 27 and a freshman and I was 19. not the best (or brilliant) thing. we ended up being friends, but that....just didn't work out either.

I turn 21 in a month and 5 days. I relish this opportunity that I've made it this far without screwing my life over because of women. I dedicate the rest of my life to helping others, I've done it so far, and I'll keep on doing it. I help people, it's what I'm here for.

That's a nice life's goal.

I am thinking to volunteer in the red cross or the red crescent for the same reason.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not stopping my own life (which also includes alot of volunteer work, mostly with my church) just because I'm single. I'm just don't want to ask out a stranger because going out with someone you don't know or barely know has barely any chance to develop into anything worth maintaining...

Right now, your sense of the odds is pretty low... hard to self-motivate when your focus is on the failures and not the potential for success, without keeping in mind what you want and what you need to learn to get there. Understandable, but you might want to consider the impact your viewpoint has on you.


M.

How can I focus on success when there is no past success to work on? That's why I focus less on success, and more on trying to not fail...