Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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Duly noted, filed for future reference.

It is a subject that drives many people; I don't agree with the premise, but can understand where the perception comes from. The titles are pretty clear, and makes them easy to avoid.


M.

And last, but not least, I will address you, Betterclassed:

You say that you want to start a theoretical revolution of the argument "nice guys vs. jerks". I won't deny that I admire your rather upbeat, positive tone on this matter, with the elimination of stereotypes concerning love, nice guys might feel that them might actually have a chance.

The reason why nice guys don't really try, as you stated, is because shy guys tend to put up a barrier for themselves because they are afraid of the worse case scenario that might occur if they attempted to start things romantically. The fear of rejection outweighs the possible benefits, we nice guys don't have a lot of faith in our abilities at love.

However, confidence and forwardness is easier said than done. Confidence and adding a little "anarchy" is not in our nature. By doing these things, we are being untrue to who we really are. You can't expect a dog to fly or a squid to run, likewise you can't expect a nice guy to be so bold and rash. Even if we tried to be so romantically assertive, there is only so long we can pull such an act of before we end up making fools of ourselves.

It is like a guy pretending to be a CEO of a top corporation to impress a girl he likes when in reality he is only low-level employee of that company. Soon or later, she will find out and then she will not care for him at all and leave.

The movie "Hitch" with Will Smith and Kevin James is a perfect example. When Smith talks to the girl that Kevin James liked, Allegra Cole. Here was their conversation in the movie:

Alex Hitchins (Will Smith): "Would you have noticed him otherwise?"

Allegra Cole: "Yes!"

Alex Hitchins: "Really?"

Allegra Cole: "Eventually..."

Allegra Cole: "...Maybe"

Exactly, it was not Kevin James's character in the movie to be so assertive and charming romantically, he had help from Hitch, and Allegra Cole bought everything hook, line, and sinker until she found out that Kevin James wasn't really like that and that he had help. Then she resented both of them for decieving her. But the trust of the matter is that she would have not even noticed Kevin James's character if it hadn't been for Hitch, which goes to show that nice guys are not well adapted to such enviroments. All though the movie is fictious, it brings up a very good point.

Forgive us, we're autistic. If there's nothing new for you here, maybe you need a new forum.

Define 'finish last.'

I'm not about to say I'm a nice guy, though I'd like to think I am. I'm certainly not a jerk, and until recently, certainly not confident.

But going on the polls here, I've had considerably more experience with women, dating and sexually (and indeed, success in the bedroom too) than not just people on here, but a good deal of my NT friends.

So what are we defining 'finishing last' as?

Ugly girls? Firstly, that's in the eye of the beholder; secondly, personality is more important. The girls I've dated have been a mixed back as far as physical attractiveness but I adored them all, from head to toe. And if you must be shallow, at least one of them was a slammin' hottie. I'll spare her the indignity of posting a picture.

Getting dumped? Everyone gets dumped. The fairytale, high-school romance, first-love forever thing happens less and less these days. A relationship ended is not necessarily a relationship failed.

Dying alone? Well, there's still time, I guess.

Nice guys do not always finish last.

If you're looking for some insta-sex with some high-school hussy who's after an alpha-male meathead, then you probably want to be a jackass. Of course, even that's not true half the time either.

But a jackass is not what all women really want.

Women are different. They are individuals just like we are.

John Hopkins,

I disagree with the guy who said that nice guys only get ugly girls, and you're right that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This being said, I will argue with you this, how many beautiful women have you dated that were into shy, nice guys? My personal belief is that many girls who are moderately-extremely attractive are more likely to think themselves more attractive or more worthwhile of certain guys than other girls. Call it a sense of over inflated self worth , perhaps arrogance. Well anyways, I think what that one guy was saying was this: Since most attractive girls are typically only interested in romantically assertive guys or charming guys, they ignore nice guys who shy away from them, and therefore nice guys have to resort to dating what they might deem average-unattractive looking women.

I can relate this, as soon as I stopped caring about dating or trying to pick up cute girls in high school, girls who I did not care anything about and with whom I was not even interested in physically, came after me. The irony was this, I wanted attractive looking girls, but when I had a chance to hang around girls, I turned them down. I think even nice guys have standards for what they want romantically, even if they aren't prone to getting girls. No guy or girl wants to date someone they find physically unattractive.

I don't want the most intoxicatingly beauty woman on this planet, but I will settle for cute or beautiful, or what I deem as cute or beautiful. Even someone like myself, who has been single for a very long time, has standards

I have no idea about nice guys and love. I am not a nice guy or a jerk. I am just a coward with poor social skills. No self respecting woman likes a wuss.

That's just not true. There are many good things about you that any woman in her right mind would die for. I can't tell you exactly what they are because I don't know you well enough, but nevertheless....

i know some beautiful and intelligent women who want to date shy, nice guys... only problem is, how to proceed when all you encounter is a barrier?

you mentioned earlier that shy guys have these self-protective barriers in place... but those barriers were put up by themselves so they really only have themselves to blame when they complain about being lonely and how no one will give them a chance

I appreciate what you are saying and even if it is true I still have to be able to actually talk to her and be comfortable enough so that those things come to light. But maybe I phrased it wrong I was trying to use myself as an example of the greater point that I was trying to make which is many people confuse being weak with being a nice guy. I am not trying to make this about me, only using the truth about myself as an example so that I don't insult anyone that may relate to what I am trying to say.

A man who is kind, honest, and respectful of others and is strong enough to take care of, and stand up for himself and those he cares about when needed, is a nice guy. Those kind do not finish last. A man who is kind but more respectful of others (bends over backwards for his friends) than of himself and generally lets people walk all over him to avoid any and all conflict and relies heavily on others for support isn't a just a nice guy, he is weak. Nice is good, but you have to be strong too or no one will respect you.

Having severe social difficulties because of a neurological disorder or what ever you want to call it is one thing. Letting those difficulties keep you in such a state of fear about the consequences of "doing the wrong thing" or that you will be rejected or laughed at, so that you opt to do nothing instead is cowardice pure and simple.

Since you're a Mod MrMark, might I suggest putting a stick on this thread?:wink:

I've been thinking about this. For me I'm attracted to nice girls and also girls that have a bit of attitude. So I'm sure it must be the same for women.

Maybe don't be a jerk, but maybe try to have a bit more attitude. I'm not completely sure what attitude is maybe attitude fits the alpha male thing.

I'm not convinced that women don't like nice guys. It just sounds stupid.

Seriously be a nice guy, but maybe look at it as a base and try to be something more than a nice guy.

If you do find a woman that is attracted to jerks and vaules jerk behaviour she isn't worth your time, she will be a female jerk.
I guess if you find her physically attractive you can act like a jerk and use her or something. But that would be as far as I would take it.

^That's my same thinking with guys.

I really don't know how men see women but for me having been a 2 relationships with guys who came off as nice and then unpredictably mean, I'd rather be in no relationship than in one where it involves what I've been through. I know we all come off fake at some degree, but how much is too much?

Honestly I'd rather have no relationship than to one who disrespects me for being me.

I kind of wonder about the ages in this forum. It's not like life is over once you become mature enough to know yourself. For me, I've come to find that I want to be respected (not put on a pedestal).

I'd like to ask where respect is in terms of boundaries rather than the usual of nice guy and bad guy theory?

Don't mean to come off dramatic but seriously do alphas and betas fit in a certain box?

I think as aspies in terms of relationships and a lot more else, we have a hard time wanting to experience the outcome. Instead we just predict what will go from there and let it dictate our classification of what a relationship is and what it's really about. At least this is something that has come to my own mind.

most aspies seem to have this idea on what they want and what relationships should be for them
and that's how it should go

very annoying in my opinion

I agree Alice, I would rather be alone then be with some ass hole

This is something I've worked at. I always see things the whole way through now. Even right now I was talking to a girl on the Internet today that I'm almost completely certain things would never work out with but I'm going to see it through and see why it doesn't and how it happens.

Well all I can say is relationships hurt like anything else in life. If this person isn't what you thought, as I've always been told, move on.

Easy said than done I think. I kind of wonder if our feelings are more hurt than an average person or an NT by that category... who knows how to pursue relationship after a broken one. I know I've been hurt many times which I blame myself. I can't exactly pinpoint it exactly but not an easy thing to deal with when one puts their trust into someone and then...all of a sudden it's gone.

Like Bogan said you just have to accept who you are and your weakness and if someone else can't accept that in the long run, than is it really worth the efffort for those type of people?

Catholic guilt?

But anyways I've kinda made myself an emotional masochist at this point because I figure that no matter how much I suffer, I did have some really good times with some good people before even if it didn't work out and that hopefully through going through this I'll achieve what I'm hoping for. I alway hold on to a few precious memories that no one can touch that I know will always outweigh everything else in my mind.