My opinion as to "nice guys finishing last" &

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Yeah, I think that's the case with a few people, and certainly me when I was younger. I can understand it well. I just always think when I'm reading these threads that...

1. nobody is a stereotype
2. People behave differently in different situations.

I think that another reason for the use of these "boxes", is that it makes it easier to have a discussion. Although very few fit totally into either box, if nobody was a claimed "nice guy" or "bad boy" then we would have nothing to discuss.

you'd have nothing left to discuss... like the entire spectrum of human relationships?
In my opinion these boxes make it easier for you to have arguements that carry on forever, go nowhere, and usually descend into some kind of pointless Men! Vs. Women! crap.

These labels are also kind of offensive. I know if I tried to file my current boyfriend under either of those catergories I'd be doing him a disservice, because he, like the vast majority of men, is more than that.

I was just making a point.

yeah, sorry for that outburst... it wasn't particularly aimed at you. I think I've made my point now, anyway.

Passion helps, but it's nothing without charisma. I'm a rather driven person, but I get carried away & too fixated on my goals that it alienates other people. What good is being a leader if nobody wants to follow?

I've learned to assume the passive role not because it's my nature, but because it's the only way I don't isolate myself.

Sorry AustisticMalcontent, I'm just getting back to the PC after a long day of meetings, so I just saw this now. I'll try to answer --

I say 100%, absolutely -- you have to play the long game, the strategic game, and make hay while the sun shines. Do whatever you can right now to make yourself happy, get some good hobbies, get a good career, round out yourself as a person and get some experience. It will pay off. It's the tortoise and the hare, and guess which one you are, and which one will "win."

Yep, it is a pretty bitter pill to swallow that you had to endure some pretty bad treatment -- after all, if your experience is anything like mine was, you probably face a lot of frustration about not attracting the ones you want, attracting ones you don't want, and getting used by some of the less ethical ones you do want. Lots of girls in that age range seem to feel pretty conscience-free about using guys without ever making good on anything, or manipulating guys. The power really goes to their heads, and it's definitely a woman's market in terms of dating.

On the other hand, just think -- they get their "day in the sun" for about 12 years of life, but after that, you get all the rest, and they'll be begging you for your attention and make it up to you in a big way. You'll have the power, and you can decide who gets what in the relationship -- just be sure to keep this in mind, and don't let the wrong one tie you down early or settle permanently for the first girl that shows you some affection or puts out.

I'd also like to mention that things can change for you much earlier. I was in a 3 year GF drought, being used but not claimed by lots of girls, but as soon as I got a GF, other girls perked up and wanted a piece of me (I've seen this in action constantly). It's like they really can sense (they are much better at sensing these things than guys are) when you value yourself and are valued by someone else. Attitude goes a long way, and believe it or not, but a year after the "drought", I actually had 2 GF's fighting over me. Being a happy person attracts women like nothing else will -- they figure you have something that's worth going after. So don't think you have to wait until your late 20s -- just know that the odds get so much better by then.

In the meantime, make it a point to get to know as many women as you can -- part of the problem with a lot of guys here is that they only make like 5 female friends a year, only one or two of which they like. You gotta figure that really only one in 10 or 20 women will like you, and that she might be taken. Increase your sample size (50 women a year), you increase your odds. You also have to stay friends with girls who have BF's, but don't let yourself be taken advantage of. Just stay on their good list, and when their relationship ends, you'll be on the list of candidates. You'll also hone your social skills with women and drastically increase your "conversion" rate. It's just like sales -- you gotta keep pitching, keep making connections, it's all about numbers and growing skill.

Finally, have you considered Craig's List? Maybe now is the time to do some sexual or relationship "exploring", especially if you have a fetish (but stay safe and get checked often). What you think of as a bad situation might actually be an advantage -- I can tell you as an older married guy that I envy the freedom I had then, and wished I had gotten out more and not been so chicken-sh*t. Think about taking advantage of your freedom -- you'll have the rest of your life to be weighed down by a long-term relationship.

Hope that helps.

I've known many young women who are not this way. It's pretty subjective - every individual man and woman is out for something different, just the worst of both genders is what becomes the most well known.

Interesting theorising...

From my point of view this is the bit where you really do pinpoint something. I have friends who are geeky people and can't get a job or a girlfriend or anything and they are lovely, they really are completely lovely, but sometimes they do seem to feel that the world owes them something. I can only say my opinion, but fond as I am of those guys I wouldn't want to spend more time with them, I wouldn't want to be the one they tell all their problems to because I hear enough of their problems already. They are great but they can be depressing.
My bf is a guy who a lot of people think is a bit of a jerk. He actually isn't... well... not that much. He just has no idea how to actually communicate with people a lot of the time, but he makes me laugh and generally after spending time with him I feel happier. So yeh, I'd choose him over a nicer but depressing guy any day. On the other hand maybe the getting older thing is true too, I'm only 21 and have absolutely no interest in being all settled and grown up just yet so that might influence things.

IME, AND from the words of many other people, the answer to the first question is a a definitive YES. But dont get me wrong, I am NOT implying that EVERY SINGLE LAST PERSON in this world does this! But I AM alluding to my belief that no less than 90% of people DO make lasting judgments, either consciously or unconsciously, about people they meet. After all,
as the saying goes: You never get a second chance to make a first impression.
But I do think that many people can and do change their minds but plenty of women have admitted to and alluded to the devastating impact that her first impression of a guy has on how she feels about him romantically. Bear in mind that *attraction* to someone is an emotional response and NOT a decision based on rational assessment.

That's because most females are prejudiced, herd-mentality c***s who can't think for themselves. They've prevented a lot of males on this forum - and elsewhere - ever getting into a fulfilling relationship, and that is unforgivable.

Last edited by BPalmer on 24 Feb 2009, 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

The so-called "nice guys" are not really nice, they are just HARMLESS, and it`s not good enough.
There must be something else to make them really nice, and there usually isn`t.

This makes the most sense to me. Recently I've been rather withdrawn and not all that social, taking some time to quietly reflect out things and figure out what I want from life. Anyway during this period I've not really attracted women, I haven't actually met many women but I think the results would have been the same anyway. Anyway my point is I'm not bitter about this because firstly I haven't been trying to attract women and secondly by putting myself in the place of the women I have met I realized I didn't show them anything for them to be attracted too (apart from my dazzling good looks (sarcasm)).

But in the past when I've licked a girl I've shown them the sides of my personality that I'm most proud of. I've been confident (or managed to act that way) and passionate and shown them how I see the world. Sometimes this has worked and the girl has fallen in love with me, sometimes it hasn't and they thought I was a bit of a freak. And obviously it's brilliant when it works and painful when it doesn't. But the point is I showed them something and they were either attracted to that or not. But I wasn't a bad boy, I didn't have a career plan, I didn't have six pack. I just showed them that there was something about me, I wasn't totally passive, I could make them laugh and see things in a new way. And once you've shown them that side of you and they are attracted/in love with you THEN you can show them you're vulnerable side, share you're insecurities. And if they have fallen for you then they don't usually seem to mind, some even seem to like it. But you have to show them you're best, most passionate, unique side first to create an initial attraction. Would the females on here generally agree with that? I can only speak from my experiences, whats worked for me and what hasn't. But generally when I've done what I said above I've managed to attract girls that I would have though were well out of my league.

And maybe it's a little easier for me than some of the other guys on here. Without wishing to sound arrogant I'm not terrible looking (in a skinny boyish way) and my aspergers is relatively mild. But my advice to the other guys would be to stop being so bitter as you turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you just feel sorry for yourself and only show girls you're insecure, bitter side they just aint gonna fall for you. Show them some happiness and passion even if it feels a little fake. Say the weird things that come into you're head, a lot of girls might think you're a freak but then some might think you're profound and insightful and it need only work once.

Also don't have unreasonable expectations. Probably my best relationship was with a girl who had a very pretty face but was a little plump (not quite fat). Anyway initially I had no attraction to her but once I was good friends with her and came to love her I though she was the most beautiful girl in the world. Attraction isn't physical, for men or women, it's a mental, symbolic interpretation of something that's physical.

OK I've written far more than I meant too. Bur for the guys reading this I will repeat, learn to be happy and at least show a confident passionate exterior and girls may well be attracted to you and then you can share you're troubles/insecurities. If you hope to do it the other way round it probably wont work.

You said you've known many young women who are not this way. Permit me to ask, was this before you knew them or after? I think that most girls put up a cold front not to get hurt as a defensive mechanism, but once it is broken, they are friendly and pleasant. I would agree that this is all pretty subjective. However it is much easier to go with a somewhat true and accurate trend then to accept the plausibility that everyone is different in their own ways.

I have no doubt there are nice, non prejudice or non judgmental girls out there who are actually nice and kind and don't look at nice guys and think they are boring and unfit romantically. I've even met some, although personality wise, they were not my type. However, when you consider that such girls are few and that presumably girls who only are interested in thrills and macho antics instead of kindness and friendliness seem to be somewhat prominent, it is easy to stick with the big picture as opposed to thinking about the very few who seem to be actually nice, friendly gals.

I would love to know if the guys who say they're nice on here, really are nice with evidence.

I would say most people are nice, assuming they aren't actively using, exploiting (without reciprocation), or otherwise victimizing other people. The guys here who say they are nice would in IMHO be as nice as the women they desire -- the difference being that for a lot of them, they see a basic inequity in one gender getting what they desire, and their own gender getting repeatedly shortchanged. It's a skewed perspective, of course, since men do have a lot of other things going for them (higher pay, cultural bias, physical strength, etc.), but for guys, sex and affection are what really matters in terms of what's missing in their lives. Having it can make you complacent, but not having it can make you crazy and depressed. And this is why it is so frustrating for men, to see a lot of women get what men desire so easily. And then they see guys that they know are users, exploiters, not nice guys in general (at least not to them) get what they want, and they get even more frustrated.