Consequences in "why to ask first"

Post Reply New Topic

Culturally speaking, Saudi Arabia isn't quite the same as North America when it comes to these kinds of things, so it's hard to compare the two places. You can't go out anywhere here in Canada without seeing countless people in mini-skirts. Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about Saudi Arabia, but are they not an Islamic state (aside from being a monarchy)? I'm going to guess that mini-skirts aren't so common there for a number of reasons.

And also, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Saudi_Arabia

If you're really worried about your hypothetical daughter wearing mini-skirts in Saudi Arabia then some better advice might be to move somewhere else where women have more freedom.

NLT, he's trying to draw a parallel, is all. He's just got the wrong end of the stick. If you want clothing that signals "f**k me" in the west, btw, you have to go for the shoes. But even there, if my kid wanted to wear a pair of fuck-me's, I'd be much more worried that she'd sprain her ankle than that someone would rape her. Absolutely stupid shoes. Oh, and I'd hand her a mirror so she could see what she looked like from behind, because those things make you stick your tush out in a ridiculous manner.

That said, as a teen I strolled all around Chelsea in high, high heels with a look that prompted an aunt to address me as "sex kitten", and nobody bothered me. Where I did get harassed: wearing jogging clothes, running along the Thames.

Ever tried to wear like a "sex kitten" in Thames?

In the Thames? That's Bond-girl territory, I'd think, would be very wet, and I don't want to think how polluted that river is, either.

Chelsea's a neighborhood that runs along the Thames, so yes, that's where I was. On my own. Actually I found I was harassed far less often in the UK than in the US -- you signalled disinterest, the guy stopped the chat-up and went away. Felt much safer there.

except the guys who said it was part of why they felt ok raping a woman. o.O

why do we bother to take any safety precautions or teach our kids anything. o.O shouldn't they be allowed to talk to random strangers?

I could care less what some woman wears, just be aware there are guys who will take it as a invitation. wrong as it is, they are still going to. so be mad at me all you want it wont change those guys. just as i wouldn't go to a black community whereing a shirt that said white power. sure I can and its my right to, but I feel the people there would take it wrong and i might get hurt. so I don't

I don't get how this logic can be applied to just about any other crime and its ok, but if you start trying to warn about rape then its bad and wrong and women should be albe to wear or not wear anything as much as they so please. blah

can i run around nude or only wearing very tight underwear? or would you advice me against it?

oh you know 99% of bushiness. they will send you home dock your pay, or there's those that will just fire you right on the spot.

Wear what you please, just make sure you stay inside the law.

The reason you're getting pushback on the issue when it comes to rape is that it's a standard woman-blaming device: excuse the rapist by, essentially, saying that the woman made him do it because of how she was dressed, or looked at him, or spoke to him, etc. Also because in fact dress has nothing to do with it, women get raped regardless of what they're wearing or not wearing. It really is just an excuse and a way of shifting blame to women.

The thing is though is what Tarantella is saying has ramifications and can be applied in other areas that has nothing to do with rape, sexism or misogyny and she's right. Let's say I am walking in a dark alleyway and I get robbed. Guess who's going to get the blame and the shaming by society? It won't be the robber. I will be the victim. Maybe I'm sick and tired of having to take all of these precautions and avoid certain areas at different times and if I inadvertently do something which someone sees as lacking common sense I get some stupid lecture or diatribe about lacking common sense. By walking in that alley way, I did nothing wrong.

To be honest, when someone says I should've had more sense it makes want to flip them off. Tarantella is right. It's victim blaming. It's the same as leaving valuable jewelry in the front seat of my car. If I do this why am I at fault if I get robbed. Why am I shamed and punished by society. It's like saying the birth of a child caused the pregnancy.

It's the robber's fault that I was robbed, not mine. Who came up with this backwards philosophy that blames the victim? Tarentella, StarvingArtist, and other feminists are on to something here and what they're saying is this is all backwards and let's turn this right side up. I for one am inclined to agree with them. When one applies feminism and certain ideas they hold to other areas such as this they make logical sense to me.

Exactly. Asking verbally first is not going to make a difference to how the person takes rejection. If they are the type of person who might assault you when you reject them, somehow managing to get this sort of person to "ask first" isn't going to change anything, other than they may be more likely to BE rejected because MOST people (in the circles I move in at least*) would consider the question to be a mood-killer.

*Well now I'm not so sure. I'm running a poll on FB and so far all of my friends have said yes to asking first before kissing a date. But the ones who have responded so far are either aspie or have aspie tendencies so I need some data from the NT population as well. I guess what I mean by "my circles" is, the people I kiss tend not to ask. Maybe I do have quite a warped sense of how it generally goes.

Agree with this sort of thing.

Not arsed with reading the 18 pages I skipped.

(shrug) we've been over all this. Unfortunately there are too many guys who can't manage to read the nonverbal signals accurately, or don't care to, and that means women getting molested and raped. Also too many guys who will take anything but scratching and clawing to get away as "keep on going". So as you can see the legal standards for rape and assault are changing.

If you're in the US I'd recommend learning how to ask/accept in ways that aren't moodkillers. Done well it's hot. Old movies are a good place to start. If you want grabbed, then once you're together, let the guy know. If you're expecting your man to read your mind generally, that's going to be problem by itself, for both of you.

wavecannon: if you're going to visit California I'd suggest reading from the beginning, otherwise you may get a surprise if you go making out with someone who (surprise) turns out not to have been all that into it.

^ I'm still really unclear on how teaching people to "ask first" helps solve this problem. A "no" in response is not "scratching and clawing to get away", so wouldn't he just do it anyway? And if he "doesn't care to" read nonverbal signals, he probably "doesn't care to" ask, or listen to the response.

Getting decent men to act more decently doesn't stop jerks from being jerks.

But if the point is only to help prevent men from being falsely accused of sexual assault because they went in for the kiss on a girl without asking and she went to the police*, then ok, it has some merit.

*And yeah, rereading your OP, that is all you meant. The thread kinda got derailed with "what is actually appropriate" rather than "what are you gonna get in trouble for".

Can't say I plan to move to California or launch into making out with anyone any time soon.

But I know that after a certain level of trust and closeness has been established in any relationship, basic physical contact can happen with non-verbal cues. Happy to kiss, lock hands or sit together on the settee and place a hand on the partner's thigh. Almost every physically interacting couple, abusive relationship or no, will do that as impulse. To rally around for permission before each minute move is to oppose practically everyone. Very few people you meet will agree to asking before every "welcome back" hug, every peck on the cheek, every handshake from here on in. No-one's really arsed, and if they are they're more likely to point out how black and white it is to think that way. It's vital that we minimise sexual assault, but placing a yard of cotton wool between every party in every interaction is unworkable and spells the death of romance. A "Shall we...?" here and there as things need to blossom or pick-up, though? Absolutely.

I remember someone once lecturing me on consent culture, comfortably in his crowd. He'd gone behind others' backs to force me out of a group a few days before. Consent for when it helped him, force for when it helped him.

and if you actually had bothered to read the thread, you would know that no one here is talking about asking your wife or girlfriend for permission to kiss them once you're in a relationship. but thanks for wasting our time!

When you mean old movies do you mean old black and white movies?

Seems like you've fallen for your own bait in dignifying me with a response, but grats on being hostile when I'm sure we share very similar values. Better to waste time by making two posts than overseeing 23 pages though. x