so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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Is a state of shock an Autistic thing? I didn't know that. I actually find it rather shocking.

I didn't say tarantella represented the worst of feminism out of anger, I said it because her appraisal of men's ability to read non-verbal communication was abysmally low and sexist. Go back and read the thread if you care to. The reason why I'm angry now and earlier in this thread is because you agreed with her about me having no respect for women and no self-control. Think about it for a second: if I actually had no respect for women, would I have raised as much hell over this? I had washed my hands of this discussion before you said that. I was reluctant to enter it now, but you kept failing to see anything wrong with what you said, so I made a big deal out of it. It's still a big deal.



Okay... I made a mistake. I'm not above owning up to my mistakes. And here's the culprit (bold emphasis mine):



I thought you meant "these issues" being poor self-control and no respect for women. To clarify, I never stopped being "quite angry" with you for suggesting I have no respect for women. You belittling my anger had the opposite effect. I regret that this argument went on for as long as it has, and I might even be persuaded to apologize for my contribution, but I'm emphatically not hopeful that I'll get a similar apology out of you for your false suggestion.

I like Ann's approach--in the daytime. She better not do the same thing late at night, though!

Let's clarify some things. First, what do you mean by "it"? If you mean sex, I have never spontaneously just tried having sex with someone without some damn obvious clues. (For example, one time we were on my bed and she put her leg over me. Even then, there was foreplay involved; you don't just jump into sex, or at least I don't.) If you mean kissing, I usually make what I consider a smaller, safer gesture like a hug or hand-holding. (For example, one time I was in a girl's car on a second date, listening to her favorite band. I reached over and tucked her hair behind her ear and gauged her reaction, then leaned in to kiss. She leaned in, too.) Second, body language factors into my decision to go for it, but it's not the only factor. Are we on a date? Is it some date number higher than 1? How long have we known each other beforehand? How long have we communicated? What do I know about this person? What do I know about how this person feels about me? What has this person told me, either verbally or through body language? Have we held hands beforehand? (<-- That one has been a pretty reliable indicator for me.) Have I been invited into her personal space, i.e. her home, bedroom, or car, beforehand? All of these are important. There was never a time when I obviously made a mistake, but plenty of times when I suspected I was getting signals but my threshold wasn't met.

I was accused of being sexist when I used quantity, such as saying a lot of women want......

me saying " a lot/most women want a guy to have a job, car, house...." isn't prejudic or discrimination. It is based on obersavations and experience.


so how can mine be sexist and hers not?

Well, this is interesting. There's a guy named Max Temkin being savaged all over the internets because apparently he "read the nonverbal signals" wrong, and the girl he did it to decided to post about it. It seems that gettin' grabby, even short of rape, will pretty much do you these days if you read those blessed brain waves wrong. The delay on the storytelling was eight years. I've no doubt Max thought everything went dandy, and forgot all about it. She didn't, though.

I think some people here underestimate how serious this s**t is. I never have understood this dug-in resistance to doing the sane and polite thing (asking, getting a yes) and the insistence on being able to read magic signals.

Because of the 'golddigging' implication, also because of the many times women right here have said no, that hasn't been important to me, and also all the evidence around of women dating/being married to men who have no money and/or are unemployed.

Sly, based on what I have seen in my life, people can be subjective about what they think sexism is as well. The nonverbal and verbal cues can very well be subjective, and yet we will still argue about the dictionary definitions. In the end, the arguing gets us nowhere. But action or inaction will get you anywhere (good or bad places).

a little off topic, and about trust: One of my favourite quotes from the bible and Jesus is "don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing." It may reference the fact that you shouldn't brag about the nice deeds you do for others as it will have consequences (ie. others pay attention to your actions and you could look like a hypocrite). on the other hand, a person you did the nice deed for goes and tells someone else and now people expect you to do nice things for them as well. That quote reminds of the trust issues I had in the past and learning how to find trusting people.

That Max Temkin thing scares me a little based on what was posted here. I need to read some information before commenting further.

http://kotaku.com/cards-against-humanitys-creator-said-the-wrong-things-1605542083

Oh hey! It's the "Half the population vs. starvingartist and tarantella64" show again!
Too bad I don't have popcorn. I'd get some, but I might miss something funny.

Really though. I'm with onewithstrange on this.

Discounting instinct and nonverbal skills is a hell of a good way of cutting yourself out of a huge number of cultural and subcultural groups. If you think that people who don't like not using nonverbal communication aren't worth it, then you're effectively calling something like half of the species trash, if not far more.

If you have a problem with something, you speak up. Always. If you're unsure of something, you speak up. Always. It's a two way street. You can't just blame men for the entire problem, as women do the same thing (saying this as a man who has experienced sexual assault in the past). If you want something or you don't want it, you speak up, or you risk being placed in an unwanted situation in which there is no easy out.



Also: On the actual topic, I feel that the stress of being single is roughly equal across the genders, as procreation is a biological imperative. If you do not feel that instinctual urge, that's fine, but you cannot discount the feelings of others as "a product of society".

i never called it gold digging. That must be your own mind.

what few women in another nation want doesn't help me, I have to deal what people in my area want.

there aren't many women here who date/marry jobless men unless they were together pre jobless.

Seems not, given the Temkin deal. Appear to be quite a number of people saying the same things we've been. You can ignore them, but I'm thinking Max isn't having a great time lately.



That's not what's being said at all. It's a very good thing to be able to read nonverbal communication. But even NTs don't rely on it when the stakes are high. That's why lawyers are rich. Important things have to go into spoken or written words, so the risk of misunderstanding drops way, way down.



Right. Like (I'm not sure if she's okay with me doing X to her.) "I'd really like to do X to you."



I never did blame men for the entire problem. (Defensive guy strategy #37: complain, despite evidence against, that women say bad things happen only to women.) That's why I ask, too.



Apparently I don't, since the rate of women having children's dropped pretty far in the US. Used to be just the thing you did, if you were a woman: you had children, if you were able physically. Now a healthy chunk of the women-of-childbearing-age population is deliberately childless. Just don't want to be moms. Which I respect.

I think we can toss the evopsych, which seems to work in no context I've ever seen.

I googled the name, and got the one hit at kotaku, and she get absolutely destroyed in the first page of comments. He says the whole thing is a false accusation, not that he "misread the signals". So, if we choose to believe Max (presumption of innocence and all), which would mean that a girl he made out with a few times in college decided to ruin his reputation for unknown reasons once he became famous, how exactly does that support your position? This story says a lot more about the social media attack machine that is too much of modern feminism than it does about non-verbal communications; your entire argument seems to be "feminists are borderline slandering a guy on social media based on ancient hearsay, and unless you want that to happen to you, you better do what I say", which is more of a threat than an argument.

Well, so according to you a sexist generalization is:
1- When it implies a sexist concept ie. "women are gold diggers".
2- Many women here on WP have said no
3- All evidences around show otherwise.
4- The user is still saying the same generalization.
==> This generalization is sexist.


Let's take a look at your thread:
1- Your thread implies a sexist idea too "Guys want any woman" or "Guys here want to date just due to social pressure" or "Guys here see women as social trophies".
2- Many guys here in this thread have said no, and explained they want a partner for other reasons (ie. need for companionship).
3- All evidences around (and studies) in life also show that men need love and companionship too, and mostly not for social pressure reasons.
4- You haven't denounced your op, so your generalization is still going.

==> Your thread is sexist.

Cornflake and mods, I suggest you to lock this thread because, according to Tarantella64's principles of defining what's sexist, her own thread is sexist.


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Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 17 Jul 2014, 1:58 am, edited 4 times in total.

Check out the comments, she's getting savaged, and rightly so.

One of the things that frustrates me about comments to this effect is that if someone like me ever tries to talk about self defense in the context of sexual assault, we'll inevitably be bombarded with comments regarding how rare 'strangers jumping out of dark alleys' type attacks are, and that the majority of sex crimes are committed by friends/family/acquaintances, but the minute someone like Anne talks about being friendly to men in public, or someone points out how overwrought "street harassment" complaints are, stranger rape suddenly becomes much more likely... Almost as if people are trying to fit the facts to their opinions, instead of the other way around.

I'm not saying you're doing that, but yours was the most recent comment to that effect, and I didn't feel like digging further back in the thread.