DataSage’s Alpha Male Guide to Meeting Women (JULY UPDATE!!)

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To all those talking about how manipulative and tricky all this stuff is, guess what? It's what naturally dominant men do subconsciously in order to attract women. The fact that it's been broken down, studied, and applied by people who don't do it instinctually doesn't make it "bad." It's just that a lot of men, especially those with AS, need to learn these things the hard way--but to reiterate, IT IS HOW NATURAL DOMINANT MEN ACT!

well my friend it seems that women who attract men never have trouble attracting them by acting a certain way. its just there whether its their personality or not. if a man is attracted to a woman he is attracted to her. if hes not its never gonna happen.

why cant we believe women are the same way. if she dont like you, then she dont, regardless of all this guru bs that we feed into. I have attracted girls I like without all this alpha male stuff, have i attracted most or all of them no, but why do we need 10,000 women anyways

I'd have to disagree with the last point. I have sufficient experience in the dating world to be able to comment on a few "techniques" adopted by males who want to take on the role of "Alpha Male." Though some of the advice offered here does have some success (by the way a lot of it can be reversed for women as well), there are some potential problems.

First, the advice does not address what happens when you come across a genuine Alpha Female. I know a few of them and have watched them shoot down a lot of men who follow these sort of guidelines religiously.
Second, you have to be cautious with the "teasing" approach because it can easily develop into what I refer to as "confidence at her expense" concept. Playful teasing (often mutual) can be fun, but only if she knows you respect her. I find it disappointing that the respect issue did not come up at all in this discussion. The reality of teasing is that it may make you look like you are confident, but at the expense that you are knocking her down a peg so to speak. Also, are you prepared for the possibility that she'll join in and begin teasing you back?
Third, this is only a way to get a number or strike up a conversation. My concern is that others may try to follow this without questioning it. But do you consider the next step? When/if you choose to call her what comes next? Do you consider these guidelines as bait to lure them in, strike up a conversation etc? Or will you try to continue with this persona of being an Alpha Male? If you choose to continue the persona you ought to be aware of the fact that eventually it will break down and the true person revealed.
Final point. Someone mentioned that women are natural empathizers (though this remark is not uncontested), wouldn't that complicate these guidelines? If women have the natural capacity/inclination towards being able to understand others thoughts, feelings, and [b]motives[b], then they would be able to notice if someone is adopting the role of Alpha Male.



The dating world does not have to be as complicated as others make it out to be. It is not a battlefield in which you need a strategy. I will, however, agree that confidence plays a large role in dating, but this also applies to females. Pretending to be confident (by means of being cocky or teasing) will not guarantee success.

Instead I would suggest a personal evaluation of one's strengths. Confidence is relative to one's on perspective of themselves. Many of you on here have admirable qualities, so don't let self-doubt restrain you. Most are confident in the areas that they excel at, and we excel because of the wealth of knowledge acquired through experience/experimentation. Feigning confidence ought not be the focus here, but rather the topic should address how to become a more confident person (there is no reason why a person shouldn't have confidence).

Generally don't bother to read this thread, but this quote caught my eye as being absolutely errant relative to my own experience. Teasing and being made fun of? From an observational standpoint, that ceased to have any practical use elementary school. A sense of humor, yes... but you suggest a form of abusive humor by targeting the other person. Women can criticize a men's dating guide; it is you who does not have the ability to determine who comments and responds to this thread... and women do know what it is like to have men attracted to them. Just because it is different doesn't mean you cannot learn from their experience. Just because something has worked in the past doesn't make it right; and just because one person doesn't like the approach doesn't invalidate it as a way to connect with someone else.

Not sure what was meant by the sentence I put in bold; women have a pretty good idea of what men 'do' to attract them... however, in talking to female friends, while what one 'does' has value it is who one -is- that matters most. So much of what I see written is superficial trimmings, throwing up a facade, instead of looking deeper.


M.

You just PERFECTLY proved his point. You saw "women love to be teased" and apparently thought it meant "enjoy being insulted." Way, way wrong. Your post is an excellent example of exactly why women really have no business talking about men's dating guides--you have no idea what works or doesn't (though, to a person, you are all absolutely convinced that you know EXACTLY what you want in a man....barf), and all if not most men you have ever been attracted to have naturally displayed the qualities which have been picked apart and discovered by those who just don't know how to do it intuitively. What you're doing would be like my going through Cosmo magazine going, "No! No! That's stupid! They have NO IDEA what they're talking about!," completely disregarding the experiences of the authors.

Oh the perils of not clicking on somebody's profile before quoting them. The poster you assumed was a woman is a man (so says the profile and I've no reason to disbelieve it). I'm a woman and happen to agree with Makuranoshi on the hogwash of this advice. I agree with you that a woman picking apart this advice would be exactly like a man picking apart the "what men like" advice in Cosmo.

Where I work, there are a wide variety of magazines laying about. Sometimes my male coworkers will pick apart the advice given in Cosmo (it's one of the ones laying about) and more or less say, "That's stupid! They have NO IDEA what they're talking about". And I believe them (the male coworkers, not Cosmo) and sometimes ask them to verify or dispute specific things that Cosmo swears are true about all men because I trust my male coworkers over Cosmo any day.

The writers of Cosmo have experience, close to 30 years of it by now. But what they have experience in is selling magazines to women. They write what they feel (correctly) women want to hear. From time to time their advice will be accurate ( so say men I've asked) and from time to time it is flat out wrong. I trust men to know themselves far more than I trust magazine editors who are trying to sell me a magazine subscription.

Similarly, the men who write these "proven techniques to get women" books know their market quite well. Their market is desperate men who are willing to try anything. Sometimes something they advise will work on a particular woman and sometimes not. The men who write these books have no special insight into women and probably know less about women than observant men like Makuranoshi and definately know less about women than the women themselves. But no0 doubt everything that ever worked on any woman they personally hit on they figure must apply across the board. And it doesn't really matter if it doesn't. Because their market is desperate men, so actual understanding of women is irrelevent. What is relevent is understanding of desperate men, and that they understand. They know that after a man buys their book, any success he has he will attribute to the book and any failure he has he will attribute to himself so they come out golden either way.

Might want to check out who you're talking to - I'm male. People in general do not like being teased and made fun of, which is something entirely different than a sense of humor.


M.

Oh I see we have our own aspiring dating guru on WP. I hope the mods will take a good look at this thread and kill it or at least unstickie it. There are many places on the net where a few people are using lonely guys to make money off selling this material in books and cds. Subsequently there are guys trying to influence people on this forum for reasons I won't speculate about. But I do know that this is somewhat effective at least initially. Why because people are motivated by their emotions. What is being taught is to trigger some very strong needs and emotions that women have. Not only that but to cycle through them and do it in away that becomes intoxicating to them. Whats different about this is that it is not coming from the guys personality or way of relating to women. It is a fabrication used to manipulate. Simply put, it's a lie used to take advantage. For guys who think this will help them out of their troubles. Listen you cannot sustain a relationship with this. The idea that you will then settle for what satisfaction some or many flings will bring is also flawed. Guys who live that life are pathetic losers and will be ultimately unhappy and leave a trail of emotional wreckage for the women that are unfortunate to know them. NO sorry this is not self improvement. It's a Con. This thread is wrong. The people on this site are here partly because they need to develop socially acceptable ways of relating to others. The long term effect of employing these tactics will put future relationships in jeopardy.

Thank you for your black-and-white breakdown of things you don't entirely understand. Of course, you are correct to some extent about all this, but certain seduction materials are exactly what some men need in order to understand human social behavior, and I think this applies to Aspie men in particular. Learning about body language, what it looks like and what it means, is EXTREMELY important, and will result in your coming across as more normal and having a fighting chance with women. This has been true in my experience, anyway.

Oh I do understand. They don't need to to learn this from rhetoric from the pick-up community. Been there, done that. What is extremely important is that AS guys understand their differences and minimize awkward approaches to women and yes learn to read social cues. I have seen very kind members of this forum helping guys with that very thing on other threads. One of the tenets of what the OP espouses is to make oneself appear different than an average guy in behavior. Hence the alpha nonsense and other "frames"... absolutely silly. We are trying to act in ways that won't single us out in social situations and the majority of guys with AS are not going to be able to pull this off. They will be discouraged and feel more ostracized after filling their heads with all this crap. Look everyone it should be a red flag to you that many posters' moral consciences were alerted in the very first pages of this thread. This is not even after being exposed to the fullness of where this is coming from. I looked to see some of the other advice that seduction authorities like datasage offer which has been conveniently omitted. Like how to get women in bed in a matter of hours. (they actually have a ridiculous number like 17 hours if you are doing it right) Or how to overcome a woman's resistance to your sexual advances. There is so much moral depravity from where this cleaned up version originates that most proponents of it would not show the material to people they know or are trying to have a relationship with. And I would not offer it to my friend who has AS. Because it does not merit someone who is being responsible for the well being of another person. In this case a woman you want to have a relationship with. It's not a fight Moose. Guys don't learn to emotionally bully women. Let your motivation be to make women more comfortable around you because you care for them. Then they will see what you are like and accept you or not.

Well said. Black and white thinking is like a mental straw man.

Look I did not come to this conclusion from a rash judgment. I immersed myself in this material for over a year and practiced these methods. I'm very aware of what it is about and frankly what is offered here is a hack-need version of it. What I found after my experience is that some of the gurus and followers exhibit sociopath characteristics. I also found that the members of these forums that promote these ideas turn over about every six to eight months. Always a new batch of young impressionable youth and lonely introverts to buy the materials. I'm sorry to give you information that is not sweet to your ears, but it's like everything else....It's about money. Players are the only ones getting played here. Do what you will. I just feel that it is a smudge on the WP name. There are some bad ideas and wrong views about relating to women in the community where this comes from. Sorry man, you don't get fresh and polluted water from the same well.

omg, you're so close-minded it's hilarious

even i could understand what datasage was saying, and i don't pick up on things well.
you don't have to be so sarcastic towards him. he's trying to help people. not turn them toward the "dark side".

the fact is it's in no way "selling your soul" to learn a few techniques.
if we were speaking in terms of math i suppose you'd say that learning techniques to manually break down and solve complex problems (95%) is witchcraft and "selling your soul" as opposed to a nice "calculator" (5%) which you'd prefer because it just would give you straight answers with no mystery or games whatsoever.

ok, get this. you don't even have to apply these suggestions. he's not neccessarily telling people , "hey, let's abandon who we are and emulate NTs in an attempt at self-denial of our problems!" it's more like he's saying, "hey, NT techniques are proven effective, you don't have to give yourself up in the process, but maybe you could learn some confidence and build on something that works for you based on a taste of positive results. they might not all be positive, but it's worth a shot"

besides, i doubt many are initially interested in a person at first solely on a "real connection" ideally, yes, in RL, not so much. typically you have to get a foot in the door by grabbing their attention in other ways . "real connections" come after if you so choose. learn some self-honesty. deep down you know this to be true. yet you are resistant, forging your own path which is respectable, but you have no right to pass judgement on the choices of others. your posts hold influence (even if insignificantly or subconsciously) on everyone who sees them. and you are to be held responsible for your negativity.

do i hear any agreement ?

For those who deny the existence of alphas:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... enome.html

then you would be a beta? or is that still too high in the wolf chain-of-command for you?

Isn't the real conflict about extremes? I agree that using a play by play guide to pick up girls is deceptive, and a community of people devoted to perfecting those methods is malignant. If you look at the guide on it's own it has some good advice for being able to get a date. But taken to an extreme it can be misogynistic, and can enable a guy to hurt many girls. The fundamental problem on both sides is that on one side you have people who hate the guide and think it means pickupartist automatically. on the other side you have people who are either profiteers or aspiring "gurus" who start using such a tool to objectify women. Between these two factions moderate voices are lost.

As someone who does not like either extreme, I would say that:

1. the guide has many helpful pointers on how to talk to women in such a way that you would become dating material rather than always being slammed in the "friends box".

2. When taken to an extreme the guide can be used by aspiring "players" to either enhance or justify their "game", and if taken to seriously may provide a gateway into the seduction community.

3. How the guide is used by someone depends on their priorities and their principles, IE someone who wants a relationship may only use it to get out of the friends box, while someone who only wants sex will tailor it in such a way that they will have the largest chance to get a girl in the sack, principles or not.

I would also like to highlight a few ethical guidelines which might ease some of the tension between both sides.

1. While taking some of the advice of the guide can help with your love life, things have gone over to misogamy when you:
a. become a member of a community specifically devoted to the art of pickup
b. start thinking of objects rather than people IE referring to women as "marks" or "targets"
c. start telling outright lies, and or deceiving women about your intentions in order to get them into the sack. IE using a fictional pre-fabricated story as part of your pickup.
d. start using a fake name
e. find yourself trying to go "cherry popping" if you are just doing pickup "no virgins" is a hard and steady rule to have.
f. stop respecting woman's stated wishes. IE the whole "yes means no" delemma.
g. develop an attitude of entitlement towards sex or love.
h. manipulate girl's expectations about what her relationship with you will be just for sex.
j. find yourself "playing" several women at once.

2. things you should remember
a. women are people
b. remember your principles
c. take everything with a grain of salt.
d. know what you want, and how far you will not go to get it.

I find most things in the guide to be harmless, however I have seen guys who do the above seriously mess up many girls.
Remember guys, when you know better there is no excuse.

On the other hand, to the courageous defenders of the beta male. I would like to point out a few misconceptions.

Unless there is some type of attraction to begin with, women often do not ever fall in love after becoming "friends".

Being overly kind in a relationship can be just as cruel being an as*hole, or sometimes even more cruel. It creates a burden of guilt that is unique to not being able to return someone's affections. or be in the relationship as equals.

this advice is the same for both sides, be respectful of the woman's wishes.

and now specifically for you proud betas: being overly "chivalrous" or "honorable" to a woman against her wishes is not respecting her independence. so is trying to "save her" (from: bad bf, addictions, eating disorder's, problems in general, ect...) stop cladding yourself in the white armor of self importance.

Finding true love is best, however we all change and mature over time, our idea mate when we are maturing, our priorities for things to look for in a love interest change as we grow older and mature, and it is very easy for two people who are perfect for each other at one point in time to grow apart into completely different people as this process progresses to the point where a relationship is no longer desirable for both parties. In this day and age it takes a hell of a long time to mature and settle down, and for those of us that do not want to be alone during that time, this guide is useful.

Practice makes you better at something. Relationships are no exception, being in a relationship even if it does not last teaches you valuable things about yourself, your comfort zone, and what you really desire in a mate. all these things are valuable in a long term relationship, and knowing them is often essential to making a relationship last.

The guide is like a tool the end to which you use it (or don't use it) is entirely up to you.