"You need to work on yourself!"

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Fnord
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04 Dec 2018, 9:20 am

AnneOleson wrote:
Aspie19828 wrote:
https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-feel-like-to-be-an-unattractive-man I think it’s a real shame that we teach men this foul lie that ‘women care about what’s on the inside.’ By and large, in romantic relationships, neither men nor women care very much about character, except, sometimes, when you get to the point of considering a life partnership. Men are taught that ugly guys are ‘cute’ or ‘funny,’ and that if we just work hard to be good people we can succeed in romance. This is utter horses**t. The lie is foul, because it makes us set up an unfair expectation on women. Women have no obligation to judge sexual partners on their intellects and characters. Demanding that of them is unfair, and makes it easy to hate, instead of accepting that ugliness is another limitation some of us our born with, just like our raw athletic potential, or any genetic component of our intelligence, or a congenital disease.
What malarkey! I’m sorry, but what is on the “inside” is the most important thing in any relationship, casual, professional or romantic. At the same time, being a “good person” guarantees nothing.
There is merit to both arguments. External aspects may attract, but internal aspects keep others around.

An ugly person may not attract many others, but "... once you get to know him, he's really a nice guy".

A beautiful woman may attract a lot of men, but if she is abusive, not many men will want to stick around.

Of course, other factors may mitigate these effects.



Marknis
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04 Dec 2018, 12:54 pm

I feel like my situation is hopeless now. I am 30 years old and others my age are already married or engaged while I don't even date. Even if I move out, the fact it took me so long as well as the fact I don't have a dating history going back to my teens will make me come off as if something's wrong with me.



fluffysaurus
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04 Dec 2018, 1:54 pm

Marknis wrote:
I feel like my situation is hopeless now. I am 30 years old and others my age are already married or engaged while I don't even date. Even if I move out, the fact it took me so long as well as the fact I don't have a dating history going back to my teens will make me come off as if something's wrong with me.

I don't recommend going into lengthy explanations in the first few dates with someone. Also women in their 30's

are different to those in their 20's. A lack of experience would still be seen as odd but the positive side will also be

seen by some women. It depends a lot on how you explain the situation.



Marknis
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04 Dec 2018, 2:14 pm

fluffysaurus wrote:
Marknis wrote:
I feel like my situation is hopeless now. I am 30 years old and others my age are already married or engaged while I don't even date. Even if I move out, the fact it took me so long as well as the fact I don't have a dating history going back to my teens will make me come off as if something's wrong with me.

I don't recommend going into lengthy explanations in the first few dates with someone. Also women in their 30's

are different to those in their 20's. A lack of experience would still be seen as odd but the positive side will also be

seen by some women. It depends a lot on how you explain the situation.


Positive in what way?

A lot of guys like me get considered to be "serial killers in waiting" or possibly pedophiles when that's not often the case. I abhor violence and I am not sexually attracted to children, my struggles come from the way Aspergers affects me and I live in a shallow culture.



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04 Dec 2018, 2:52 pm

Marknis wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
Marknis wrote:
I feel like my situation is hopeless now. I am 30 years old and others my age are already married or engaged while I don't even date. Even if I move out, the fact it took me so long as well as the fact I don't have a dating history going back to my teens will make me come off as if something's wrong with me.

I don't recommend going into lengthy explanations in the first few dates with someone. Also women in their 30's

are different to those in their 20's. A lack of experience would still be seen as odd but the positive side will also be

seen by some women. It depends a lot on how you explain the situation.


Positive in what way?

A lot of guys like me get considered to be "serial killers in waiting" or possibly pedophiles when that's not often the case. I abhor violence and I am not sexually attracted to children, my struggles come from the way Aspergers affects me and I live in a shallow culture.

This is why how you explain really matters. If you don't explain other than that you've had no/little experience

she will fill in all the blanks by assuming you aren't attracted to women ect. I wouldn't mention your lack of

experience until you're ready to tell her you're an Asperger then explain it as part of that because it is part of that.

Positive as in you're not a player, you'll take a relationship more seriously, you won't be off talking to other women

all the time. You won't be coming home from a lads night out rat arsed and waking the baby. You won't disappear

to Amsterdam for a week after a stag night. I could go on.



rdos
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04 Dec 2018, 3:02 pm

Fnord wrote:
rdos wrote:
To succeed in romance or relationships is a faulty concept. You succeed in work, with goals or with interests, but romance is nothing like any of them, and so "succeed" is a faulty concept in relation to romance.
Maybe ... but if you measure success in a romantic relationship by the continuance of that relationship, then the concept is valid.


I think that's a flawed concept. I think the only valid measure is that you are still happy and passionate about each other. Just staying together has no validity as a measure of success in a romantic relationship.

While some people (I'm one of them) want to have a job I'm passionate about, and that makes me happy, most people will never achieve that but they will stay at their work. So, for most people work is just a source of income, and if you judge romance that way too (for instance, as a source of sex), I think you are fooling yourself.

Fnord wrote:
Romance is a social issue. It's just that maintaining a romantic relationship is like trying to live on a world where the landscape is constantly changing, and the rules aren't written down.


Nope. An ideal relationship is one that has NO social component whatsoever. You are back to your NT models of relationships & dating again.

Fnord wrote:
I gotta disagree. There is the interview process, the probationary period, the commitment, the long-term relationship, and the sudden end to that you never saw coming.


I'll run as far away as possible from all of those concepts.



Fnord
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04 Dec 2018, 3:25 pm

rdos wrote:
... I'll run as far away as possible from all of those concepts.
And that is why you fail at relationships.



rdos
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04 Dec 2018, 4:35 pm

Fnord wrote:
rdos wrote:
... I'll run as far away as possible from all of those concepts.
And that is why you fail at relationships.


I don't fail at relationships.

Besides, the probationary period sounds a lot like a probation penalty, and the whole process is more similar to a life-long prison sentence than anything I would enjoy. Kind of like how slavery is related to work.

An ideal relationship for me is when two completely independent people enjoy each others company and have a great passion between them. They see each other because they enjoy it and not because of slavery or a life-long prison sentence.



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04 Dec 2018, 5:30 pm

Marknis wrote:
I feel like my situation is hopeless now. I am 30 years old and others my age are already married or engaged while I don't even date. Even if I move out, the fact it took me so long as well as the fact I don't have a dating history going back to my teens will make me come off as if something's wrong with me.

OK, but if experience is what it's all about, then nobody would ever get into relationships in the first place. It all STARTS somewhere.

The way I see it, the only way your past experience is going to matter is if your history put you at high risk for disease and you're not sure if you're clean or not. If you have a disease that could be spread through sexual contact and sex is part of the conversation, then you have to open up about that.

LACK of experience? See, that's just stupid, and hypocritical for anyone to judge you on that. People aren't really all THAT concerned about it, to be honest.

Let's look at it logically. Let's make one assumption, that absolutely no one will date you unless they believe you've had relationship experience. You + dating are mutually exclusive. Why? You can't date without experience, but then you can't get experience without dating.

So--given that one assumption, nobody would ever date anyone at all because getting dates is contingent on experience. But people in our scenario DO date. That means guys getting dates when you don't is unfair because they aren't being honest about their own experience.

The only logical conclusion you can draw is that given all guys do get dates at all levels of experience, either girls aren't asking them about their experience, or guys are lying about it.

I've got a nice little pickup line locked and loaded precisely for this situation:

"You hating on me because I don't have 'experience'? What does that even mean? You wanna talk experience, you're not experienced, either. You are? No, you're not. I know you're not, and I'll tell you how I know. You haven't experienced ME, yet!"

If the problem REALLY IS that you're in a Catch-22, then it's hypocritical of anyone to call you out on experience. Deep down everyone knows this. Girls, in my experience, don't really ask you about that. If a girl gave me a hard time about it, and nobody ever did, I'd have just said, "If there was anything you needed to worry about, I promise, I'd have told you. Tell you what, let's make a deal: If you won't ask about how many women I've been with, I won't ask about how many men you've been with. All you need to know is you're not going to have any problems with me. Are you trying to tell me that there's something about you I need to know? Because if not, I think we have more important things to discuss..."

In other words, your level of experience is NOBODY'S BUSINESS. It really DOES NOT MATTER. My advice on this matter would be just what I've always said: Dive into women's media, find out what they're saying. Read romance novels. Read non-fiction/self-help on relationships. Read authors with divergent views, absorb every bit of it, and memorize. If you're NOT confused by all the conflicting advice out there, you're not reading enough. Read anything you can get your hands on about communication, and I highly recommend female authors writing for a female audience. Find out what they're saying "out there."

And watch Dr. Phil, too, and maybe even Divorce Court (I haven't watched that in years, but it used to be a good source of what-not-to-do info. Maury and Springer, too. Ok, I know...that's redneck/white-trash/ghetto stuff. But watch those for the sub-text. Shows like that are entertaining to various people-groups for a reason: they BEGIN with a premise, with truth, and spiral that truth into a surrealist relational mish-mash that even Salvador Dali would have been proud of. Look for the truth beneath the human cesspit and you'll learn a lot about what women are after. Why? These people make it their BUSINESS to know what women want on a mass scale. They're doing all the research for you. Put it to use.

Not to ignore all the women's blogs out there--that's important, too. But you don't even want to think about how much money marketers are making to reach women. Absorb everything.

Even stuff you may not agree with at all, like PUA--find out what PUA's are saying. Does it ACTUALLY work? That's an open-ended question, btw, and I'm not looking for any one correct answer. Are some PUA's possibly onto something? Does SOME of it make sense? You might be surprised by what you come up with.

When you actually DO have a date right in front of you, you'll find yourself actually OVERprepared. One date is not every single woman in the world. But you'll find that she's a reflection of SOMETHING you've read in a book, magazine, blog, or watched on TV or in a movie.

Another way to break the cycle of inexperience is by starting at a low level and working your way up. Your first experiences with a woman might be saying hello to the cashier at the grocery store. Or if you always hang out at a coffee shop, there's that one woman who always comes in at the same time and you say hello. You're used to seeing her and speaking to her in one-liners, so maybe one day you just ask if she wants to sit at your table. Or maybe you know when she's coming in and you find out what she always orders, so you go ahead and pay the barista ahead of time and he or she tells your girl it's on you. So while it's not an "official" date, it's awfully close to it. That counts as something in the way of experience. And then you go an a date-date with someone at some point. You may never go out on a date with this person ever again, but that's experience. Keep it up long enough, eventually there's gonna be that one girl you seem to have the best luck hanging out/going out with, and there's your relationship. And eventually you'll likely break up. That's experience. And you go right back to the beginning. You'll do this many, many times, over and over again, until eventually something sticks. By that point nobody can say you didn't have experience. You'll never have that if you don't count the tiniest, most seemingly insignificant encounters as SOMETHING.

Either way, you owe NOTHING to ANYONE, with the exception of anything that might affect someone's health or life.

I strongly dislike advising anyone to pursue sexual relationships. But it's the same thing in terms of inexperience--nobody's business. I was fortunate, I guess, because my first time was with a virgin. We'd been together for years, had fooled around in almost every way you can without having sex (although most anything counts these days). She was doing something she knew turned me on, I told her what I was going to do if she didn't stop. She didn't stop, and neither did I.

I've been intimate with a tiny handful of women since, and I discovered something I thought was interesting: Every woman is different. Yeah, I know that's like stating the obvious. What I mean is I know the basic mechanics of how sex works, I know how to stay in control of myself. But every time I've been with a new woman it was just very different, like my previous experience and the, like, hundreds of times I'd had sex with someone didn't really seem to matter at that point. There's no real way to prepare for a new woman in your life, no matter what aspect of the relationship you're talking about. Every single time you're intimate with a woman, you can honestly say you've NEVER been with anyone like her. So whatever "experience" you think you've had, it doesn't matter one bit when you're with someone new. The only way sex is going to be the same with every woman is if your own satisfaction is all that counts. Men out there who use women for their own pleasure and just want to get it done as quick as they can...well, women make fun of men like that. I'm not sure I'd enjoy being seen in public by women if a woman went and blabbed to all her friends that I couldn't last 15 seconds. The ability to thoroughly satisfy a woman carries more bragging rights than fooling a woman into thinking she should go to bed with you at all. I recall one woman in particular who was, um...relentless in bed and, I think, was really trying to see how far she could push the limit with me. She had far more experience than I've ever had, but I know she really enjoyed being with me.

So in recalling that, the lesson here is that it's not so much how many notches you have in your belt, but more just don't be an idiot. The experience thing is superfluous in the grand scheme of things. Don't worry so much about it.



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07 Dec 2018, 2:40 pm

Marknis wrote:
This is something I am commonly told by others when I mention my struggles in establishing a relationship. Even those who tell me there's nothing wrong with me tell me to work on myself. I honestly don't know how to go about this or even if it's possible for me. I have been in a routine for most of my life and I am usually drained by the stress I go through to the point I pretty much collapse under the pressure I feel. I am 30 now so if I couldn't achieve social skills and my goals in my developmental years, how can I ever at all when I've missed out on so many milestones?


I think when people say “work on yourself”, what they mean is to focus on your own health, wellbeing and goals. It’s not basing your happiness and self worth on a relationship. You need to learn to be okay with being by yourself and finding emotional connection and fulfilment in ways that doesn’t necessarily involve sex. Relationships take work and being in one isn’t going to magically make you happier.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t try to find a partner. I’m just speaking from personal experience. It sucks to be rejected and to feel lonely, but the world is a big place and sexuality is such a small aspect of our lives.



Marknis
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11 Dec 2018, 1:42 pm

Men and women are really divided in the culture I live in. Men are expected to love football, cars, guns, and live life dangerously while women are expected to shop for clothes, talk on their cellphones obsessively, read romance novels, and go to church if they want to find a husband.



xxZeromancerlovexx
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11 Dec 2018, 2:51 pm

Marknis wrote:
Men and women are really divided in the culture I live in. Men are expected to love football, cars, guns, and live life dangerously while women are expected to shop for clothes, talk on their cellphones obsessively, read romance novels, and go to church if they want to find a husband.


That’s sexist. Sounds like a very stereotypical and ignorant culture.


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11 Dec 2018, 7:58 pm

xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:
Marknis wrote:
Men and women are really divided in the culture I live in. Men are expected to love football, cars, guns, and live life dangerously while women are expected to shop for clothes, talk on their cellphones obsessively, read romance novels, and go to church if they want to find a husband.


That’s sexist.


I agree! Mark, who often tells you to behave like a gender stereotype?

Tell such people who tell you to behave like a gender stereotype to back off and stop telling you to
behave in a way only they want from you.


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Marknis
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11 Dec 2018, 10:37 pm

AnonymousAnonymous wrote:
xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:
Marknis wrote:
Men and women are really divided in the culture I live in. Men are expected to love football, cars, guns, and live life dangerously while women are expected to shop for clothes, talk on their cellphones obsessively, read romance novels, and go to church if they want to find a husband.


That’s sexist.


I agree! Mark, who often tells you to behave like a gender stereotype?

Tell such people who tell you to behave like a gender stereotype to back off and stop telling you to
behave in a way only they want from you.


I don't really get told to act in a stereotypical manner. I am just going by my social experiences.



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12 Dec 2018, 8:14 pm

Marknis wrote:
AnonymousAnonymous wrote:
xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:
Marknis wrote:
Men and women are really divided in the culture I live in. Men are expected to love football, cars, guns, and live life dangerously while women are expected to shop for clothes, talk on their cellphones obsessively, read romance novels, and go to church if they want to find a husband.


That’s sexist.


I agree! Mark, who often tells you to behave like a gender stereotype?

Tell such people who tell you to behave like a gender stereotype to back off and stop telling you to
behave in a way only they want from you.


I don't really get told to act in a stereotypical manner. I am just going by my social experiences.


People who look down upon you see you as inferior because they see themselves as inferior. However, such people who do this will never admit such feelings.

Just remember that feeling inferior is not your fault and never will be.


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Marknis
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13 Dec 2018, 1:28 pm

xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:
Marknis wrote:
Men and women are really divided in the culture I live in. Men are expected to love football, cars, guns, and live life dangerously while women are expected to shop for clothes, talk on their cellphones obsessively, read romance novels, and go to church if they want to find a husband.


That’s sexist. Sounds like a very stereotypical and ignorant culture.


There's even women here who say women shouldn't ever become presidents of this country and think Donald Trump is a "Godly" man. :roll: Outside the Bible Belt, women generally avoid Trump supporters but it's the opposite here. If you aren't a Republican voter and proclaim yourself to be a Christian (Even if you don't even follow the tenants of Christianity), your dating opportunities are very slim.

My aunt once introduced me to an aspie girl who she said liked anime but when I talked to her, she told me she was no longer interested in the medium. :(