DataSage’s Alpha Male Guide to Meeting Women (JULY UPDATE!!)

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I disagree. There really do seem to two kinds of men women are generally attracted to : the tough macho type expressed by Tyler Durden in the film Fight Club and the effeminate loverboy expressed by pick-up artist Neil Strauss. The Tyler Durden type will mostly engage women's primary instincts and seduce her mostly in a physical and shallow way, whereas the Neil Strauss type will try to manipulate her emotions and use mostly his sense for style and his empathy.

The closer you as a man resemble either stereotype, the more feminine attention you'll get. One requires to to be über-manly and macho, the other requires you to be über-sensitive and feminine. Both are pretty hard for Aspie guys.

Nevertheless, the Tyler Durden type is the type referred to as the "Alpha male" in the OP and this type is the one that's historically been most succesful seducing women because it calls to their primary instincts. Women can easily get hot for a man like that.

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I have written quite a bit on the alpha male fallacy. See my post here:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf54236-0-60.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt78680.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt109743.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf109743-0-15.html

You might want to read all of each of those threads to get the full picture.

I think there is an assumption that if you don't buy the alpha male theory in humanly that you are naïve hippie, it could be further from the truth with me, and I'm not blinded by a sense of fairness. Most of the alpha theories to do with humans are very simplistic and the evidence doesn't stack up. Though if it about believing you are one that is a different thing altogether.

Personally I don't why this slant is not stickied also, to give a broader picture.

It's not quite as simple as that. I have been hitting the gym for two years and don't look bad for a 43yo man (I look a lot better than most 43yo men, anyway) but this hasn't helped me one little bit with women. Why? - because most other guys aren't Aspies.


Hate to disagree but finding a woman who will accept a handicapped man is like finding a needle in a haystack. Most women are just not that deep. OK - the odd exeptional woman is but by the definition of the word "exeptional", most women aren't.


See notes immediately above

The likely reason for that is that you weren't an Aspie in the first place - you were a guy who was just shy. I commend you for overcoming shyness. However, the fact remains that significant social disfunction is one of the hallmarks of AS. A true Aspie never really gets a handle on this - they just learn to work their way through these situations as best they can. Most people who seem to overcome their AS are in fact not Aspies.

OK - so if your AS isn't really affecting you anymore, have you eliminated all you obsessions? Have you eliminated the prosody from your speech? Have you eliminated the body language that Aspies are famous for? Have you miraculously leaned to be empathetic? I doubt it as these things are really hard to overcome - if it is possible at all. I have never managed it. On the other hand, someone who was merely shy - as Opposed to being an actual Aspie - would not have to worry about these things.

When receiving advice on Aspie issues, I prefer to hear from someone who is an Aspie.

I'm not sure how our obsessions really limit us in daily life other than us spending way too much of our available money on them and some neurotic tendencies you learn to deal with.



It's not so hard to adjust your speech to different situations once you know what to pay attention to.



I still have some, but you will probably not notice it unless you spend a lot of time with me in my spare time as I learnt to control them in most situations. Some exceptions are when I try to dance or when I'm really nervous.



Lack of empathy can be overcome with logic up to a point. I've developed my social skills enough to make a good impression in a job interview if I try it often enough. The only thing I still have major problems with is flirting because that's just way too subtle.



Just because you haven't been able to overcome most of your problems, that doesn't mean those who have aren't Aspies. Life experience, individual character and IQ play a very important role as well.

I take offense to this. I was diagnosed at Yale University in New Haven, CT (authoritative enough for you?), and was retested and diagnosed another two times at the same place, by different doctors. You've got a lot of nerve to tell me that I don't have AS, and its a very snooty, aspie-thing to say. And to answer your question, no I have not eliminated my obsessions, I am still as obsessed with politics as ever, the only difference now is that I've turned it into a strength. I'm working on a Ph.D as we speak, and I'm a mere 23 years old. And while I'm certainly more empathetic than I was previously, I still have trouble with relating to people in certain ways. My social skills are a LOT better, but they are far from perfect.

And your advice is very negative and counterproductive to most Aspies here. Stop complaining already and blaming the world, and start playing with the cards you've been dealt. Telling others they can't overcome AS is pure BS, and I'm living proof. If only you knew how bad I really was...

Wait a minute... you still post here?

That said, while I know aspies can improve themselves (I went from being a complete social outcast to at least being able to make friends), I also think there's a limit to how much an aspie can improve oneself. You were fortunate enough to be able to improve yourself to the point that you can successfully attract women. Not so much the case for me... no matter how hard I try, I can't seem to break through that ceiling.

I'm not going to be a jackass and go on saying that aspies can improve themselves (because aspies can), but you have to take a bit of realism into account... there are some people (like myself) that are simply unable to gather attraction at all, and encouraging people like that with this material could be potentially dangerous.

DataSage, I think this was, overall, a very positive and genuine guide that you made. Sometimes it's accepting little harsh realities to make us better people, and being confident around girls is one of them.

I'm glad to hear that you are pursuing a PhD, and have overcome many of your social problems. I have NLD myself, and still have a lot of difficulty around girls. But I have gotten dates - but I didn't get them by not showing my true colors and being comfortable with who I was (at the time. Discomfort always seems to resurface now and again). But yeah, IMHO, you're someone to look up to. Thanks.

I lol'ed at the OP when he started referring to IOIs. The date was 2 December 2006! I was working on Bid-Offer Machine at the time and my server was about to go live!

[Seanmw wrote:

Deutha wrote:
>>Please, don't knock something when it works in application.

my apologies, it's obvious i know not what i im talking about while you have it all figured out

why try and create something new when u can imitate NT seduction techniques...ofcourse forever more 95% of women will continue to play those games becos they have to deal with shallow seduction rather than a real connection...

ooh i can add something...feeding the girl that your preying on 6-10 drinks..and ur seducing will work even better
i mean hell you don't need the conscious mind for what ur after. ie. manipulating traits to appeal to the caveman animus of the female mind

all in all whatever you do....don't be proud to act like an aspie...make sure you try and act as NT as possible, becos its all about selling ur soul to be more successful with more women

goodluck guys..
to shortcut all the reading in the guide just follow this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZSrXsGct6g
(notice how well he does the smile!)



omg, you're so close-minded it's hilarious

even i could understand what datasage was saying, and i don't pick up on things well.
you don't have to be so sarcastic towards him. he's trying to help people. not turn them toward the "dark side".

the fact is it's in no way "selling your soul" to learn a few techniques.
if we were speaking in terms of math i suppose you'd say that learning techniques to manually break down and solve complex problems (95%) is witchcraft and "selling your soul" as opposed to a nice "calculator" (5%) which you'd prefer because it just would give you straight answers with no mystery or games whatsoever.

ok, get this. you don't even have to apply these suggestions. he's not neccessarily telling people , "hey, let's abandon who we are and emulate NTs in an attempt at self-denial of our problems!" it's more like he's saying, "hey, NT techniques are proven effective, you don't have to give yourself up in the process, but maybe you could learn some confidence and build on something that works for you based on a taste of positive results. they might not all be positive, but it's worth a shot"

besides, i doubt many are initially interested in a person at first solely on a "real connection" ideally, yes, in RL, not so much. typically you have to get a foot in the door by grabbing their attention in other ways . "real connections" come after if you so choose. learn some self-honesty. deep down you know this to be true. yet you are resistant, forging your own path which is respectable, but you have no right to pass judgement on the choices of others. your posts hold influence (even if insignificantly or subconsciously) on everyone who sees them. and you are to be held responsible for your negativity.

do i hear any agreement ?

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to me - emulating a mundane (''nt'') is so very UNcool because it is a form of lying.

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Salonfilosoof wrote:

AspiRob wrote:
I know what you are getting at with the word "deep". I use the same word to explain the opposite of shallow in the emotional and general psychological sense.



The word is not so uncommon within that context, but "a deep woman" just sounds so totally wrong.

AspiRob wrote:
What is the female obsession with confidence, anyway? As I have said in another thread, confidence is not the be all, end all definition of human worth. I know plenty of people (men and women) who are supremely self-confident despite being near idiots - it's called self delusion. I have also met many greatly talented people who (for whatever reason) don't have a lot of self-belief despite having great achievements. Given the choice, I would always take the latter over the former.

I have also observed that the most confident people in the world (again, both men and women) are usually people who have never faced adversity in life. By this I mean people who through pure good luck, have had everthing in life handed to them on a silver platter. How could one not be confident if all goes well for them?


It's probably evolutionary. Back in our deep past, the most confident men were probably also the ones who had least to fear not to come home with a deer on their shoulders. As such, confidence in oneself was probably equivalent to ability to provide for the family.

Today this is of course far from true, but since women rely more on their intuition/instinct than men it seems like women have more than men the tendency to fall for the same type of guy their female ancestors fell for many thousands of years ago.

AspiRob wrote:
Again, as I have said in another thread, it is unreasonable for anyone (male or female) to expect a handicapped person not to have some hang-ups about their disability. I certainly have and I don't see that as being a weakness.


I don't consider my Asperger's as a handicap but rather as a different way of processing information. Although it makes it harder for me to do simple household shores, to prioritize and to get through most social interactions without people thinking I'm a weirdo, I can more or less live on my own and take care of my own life. I don't see why I should see myself as any more handicapped than homosexuals or people with other social deviances.

AspiRob wrote:
It is being judged by women wholly on my deficits that gets me angry. To me, this is just another example of how shallow most women are.


I can't disagree with you here.

One thing I noticed is that it doesn't even matter whether they know about the cause of your deficits. If they don't know you have Asperger's, they just think you're rude and lazy and demand you grow out of it. If they do know you have Asperger's, they just say you're using the Asperger's as an excuse and that no woman would ever be willing to live with you if you don't grow out of it anyway...... So it doesn't really change anything at all.

Oh, and it's not just my exes who say that I can only find the right kind of woman if I continue to perfect myself according to the neurotypical mold. My lesbian friends say so as well. I guess it really is a general female thing....

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but when it comes to shallow - how do the aspie/autie women compare to the mundane (''nt'') ones?

Last edited by lewdi28792 on 10 Jan 2010, 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

I rather be single and be me then be dating and have to fake it. Even if the point of the "fake" is to start the relationship, and then be honest after, thats in a way worse. The girl in that case likes you for something you are not. If I am single for awhile, so be it, I am single on my terms.

Well said - that pretty much covers the philosophy I have arrived at.

In part, I agree with this. At the same token, however, being single on ones own terms can still be very, very lonely.

This reminds me of something I was wondering about earlier. I've been single all my life now,as Aspergers, originally, made interactions with the opposite sex very awkward (though I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt this way). People have always told me not to get desperate and not to "try" to get a girlfriend, on the grounds that there is no greater turnoff than desperation. I've been told that "things will happen when they will happen," that one day I'll just meet a girl who I will immediately click with, and things will go alright from there.

Now, I don't disbelieve this, as I've gotten on very good terms with a lot of girls in the past. The only problem is, they have almost always turned out to already have a boyfriend. So, to anyone who is more knowledgeable about this sort of thing than I, is there any truth to the adage that one day a relationship will just "happen," or is the "Alpha Male" path so eloquently described and elaborated upon by DataSage the only way to finally enter into a relationship?

Pickup artists or the PUA community is a joke.

If you're morbidly obese do nothing but play WoW and troll people online, it doesn't matter what tricks you pull... you're not getting girl.

This guy is a PUA-community survivor:
http://www.datinggroundwork.com/seductioncommunity

He explains what parts work and what parts don't. How you can use these resources without letting them take over your brain. He explains not to believe everything these brilliant sounding blokes in the community say - very many of them sound competent without ever having gotten a single date. His advice on dating is detailed and very very cool.

Personally, I thought that DataSage's guide was quite excellent when it came to describing good conversation starters and techniques. To AspieRob and all the others who are taking offense to it- it's not faking. I have the same kinds of anxieties as all the rest of you guys, and the same types of fears thatcome with trying to talk to women. It's not cause we're aspies- it's because we're MEN. This kind of struggle has been going on since the dawn of time, and it's not going to get better.
And for the people whose screennames I can't remember, it is possible to overcome a lot of the aspects of Asperger's in our lives, without hiding whom we are. I personally drive a car, live completely on my own, interact with the world on a daily basis, etc. I also talk to myself, have an obsession with talking about movies wthout even realizing it, laugh at the same damn jokes twenty times in a row to the annoyance of my coworkers, etc. And do I complain? No. Most people view me as odd, but most are quite accepting. You can't classify the NT women as a bunch of shallow "mundanes", for example, because they are just like us. We are all human. Just because someone doesn't haven't Aspergers does not mean that they are stupid or shallow. Take a chance with some of DataSage's advice, and you just might find someone whom you can be happy with.