so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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This does not always matter, I have run across women whom want you to accept their children, but does not want to accept yours. learned this the hard way to where I had to give the woman the boot. and after you get so old, most women consider their child rearing years done with and do not want in anther relationship with more children to finish raising.

Yeah, general aviation. It was fantastic, also expensive, which grounded me in the end. I was lucky, though, got to fly and ride in a bunch of older, fabric-covered planes -- so beautiful, esp. open-cockpit. My instructor was rated for aerobatics, too, so after lessons we'd go out to the practice space and he'd take over and show off. Super fun. I flew only VFR, but my instructor took me on a night flight once in a little twin...amazingly beautiful.

I worked at the airport for a while after that, cadging rides when I could. Actually for sexist environments, I'd say that's probably the worst I've been in. It was tolerabel when I was flying (though older women were permanently enraged by it), but when I was 'one of the girls behind the counter' it was appalling.

I still miss it sometimes, but I live in a part of the country where it's not so exciting anyway. Everything's flat, and the air just separates into layers, and things are the same for miles and miles and miles. But yeah, if you fly, you actually have to know what you're doing, how the aircraft works, the training's intense, you don't just hop into a plane and go. When I started driving, it totally freaked me out, how close people would drive to each other, and how stupidly, with no appreciation of physics at all. I just refused to do it a lot of the time. Which is funny, in retrospect -- jobs were already scarce, and mine was 45 min from home, but some mornings there'd be thick fog where you couldn't see a damn thing, and neither could the other drivers. So I'd call in. And my boss would say, "But you have to come in," and I'd say, "No I don't. I'll be in whenever the fog lifts." And I was. They liked my work enough to accept it.

OWS: your analogy's breaking down hard. Nobody has ever said here, "Do not attempt to have a sexual relationship because someone might get hurt" (which is analogous to your "never drive"). What has been said is, "Ask before you try it, so that you don't wind up assaulting someone because you've misread or imagined signals." A decent analogy there might be, "Wear seatbelts and don't drive in ways that make your passengers uncomfortable. And if you can't find a way of being comfortable together, then maybe you shouldn't drive together."

If you really want to make driving explicitly analogous to touching someone sexually without asking first because "you can just tell it's okay", then I think we'll need some comparable rates of things going badly wrong. A quarter of the population doesn't get mangled in car accidents, though. If they did -- and there was a time when that sort of thing happened -- drivers would be declared a public menace. Motor vehicle legislation happens at much lower incidence-of-bad-accidents-rates than that. We didn't need a quarter of all kids getting smashed up on bikes, or motorcyclists buying it, to pass helmet laws.

Anyway. The quotes you've picked out are in the context of a long argument with goldfish21, the guy who insisted he had these magic powers. Some of the quotes you've picked out are in response to his assertions that women have no reason at all to fear anything from men; since he's talking about "women" and "men", I respond appropriately. When it comes to getting verbal consent, though, I say repeatedly there (and elsewhere) that this is an equal opportunity issue, and indeed why I ask before doing, too.

(more to the point, OWS, why are you still trying to argue that this is essentially sexist? I've already said very plainly -- have from the start -- that women should ask for consent too, before doing. Or, put it this way: People should ask consent before they touch other people sexually.)

Regarding the single moms, I said they might be more likely to accept the idea, I bet it's not easy but it's somewhere to start; there are also the widows? http://www.widowsorwidowers.com/

Are you sure it was sexism or were they scared of the idea in being in a plane piloted by a beginner? Why would older women be enraged by it?

my experience has taught me that much of the opprobrium i received as a young woman from older women for doing things they themselves wouldn't do as women because they deemed them "inappropriate" for our gender stemmed from envy at the freedom of choice i was displaying that they themselves didn't feel they had at my age, or perhaps they might have made different choices themselves. either that, or they had completely internalised the idea that they were members of the "weaker sex" and were just expressing how effectively they were brainwashed into a sense of inferiority and helplessness, and i was challenging that idea by doing something they thought women couldn't (or shouldn't) do and making them uncomfortable for that reason.

Perhaps why I hear the "it's men's job" term often on older women's tongues (for various tasks like lifting stuff, repairing...etc).

The other women were much more experienced than I was -- one was an instructor herself. They were enraged because they were chronically treated so poorly by the men, dismissed and belittled as pilots, their views ignored, they were left out of planning, had to deal with leering and comments about their bodies...that's all I knew about, anyway.

Flight instructors are paid to stop noobs from killing them. Part of the job. That's why they're anxious for you to solo. Most of the flight-school students are usually guys, btw.

I should add this was over 20 years ago, though, so I don't know what's changed.

No argument, there: I am having to break it down for you to get it.



- Not attempting to have a sexual relationship would be like not attempting to get to your destination in my analogy. I didn't say the guy was suggesting women not try getting to their destination, I said the guy was saying women shouldn't drive. The guy could still be okay with women getting a taxi, for example.

- Not driving is the behavior that the guy is recommending to women, similar to how asking is the behavior that you are recommending to everyone, (but mostly men, as I've shown).

- In my analogy, all you're disagreeing with is whether reading non-verbal cues is an adequate "seatbelt" for the trip, or arguing that a particular safety precaution isn't good enough when compared to the consequences of wrecking, or being accused of rape.



"Explicitly analogous"? As if I meant for my analogy to reflect reality? It doesn't have to: an analogy just has to reflect the situation it is being compared to, which it does.



Nice try, but I provided the links so anyone may go back and read your posts instead of just taking your (or my) word for it. You did have a conversation with goldfish21, but only one quote was taken from that, which was the rape stats. Let me post a more complete exchange:



As we can see, you posted those rape stats not in response to goldfish21 asserting "women have no reason at all to fear anything from men", but rather in response to goldfish21 talking about "the flow of the magic of the moment". Once again, you're not able to distinguish between rapists and men who prefer to be spontaneous, which is where the sexism comes in.



See above.

(smh) OWS, the point being made to goldfish (in the context of his "most of the rest of the world just goes with the flow of the magic of the moment") -- and, now, to you -- is that apparently a whole lotta guys think they're wonders at reading signals, but in fact some of them are raping and assaulting women. That's how you get to rape stats of a quarter of the female population. The guys felt magic and "went for it", "preferred to be spontaneous", or what have you. The girls felt assault. Sexual assault isn't just, or even usually, about tackling some woman in a parking lot.

Max Temkin's a nice example. He didn't hear no, he thought he was doing a-ok, and he thought all was cool. All was not cool. So now a few million people know him as a guy who sexually assaulted a girl. Will it make a difference in his life? Maybe. Had he asked, though, instead of grabbing, it'd be a different story.

(You could turn it around and talk about women grabbing at uncertain men, too. AspieOtaku brought up some stories, as did I. Again, the theme, which you're not wanting to hear: The gender of the grabber and grabbee don't matter. Just ask first, and don't touch people sexually unless they say they want you to.)

Sorry, this is making no sense whatsoever, particularly since both men and women can be rapists.

I think you've got some fantasy that it doesn't really matter that much if someone guesses wrong in his or her "spontaneity". It can matter quite a bit. It's also simply disrespectful, and, frankly, BS. I've spontaneously asked men if I could kiss them. Honest to god, didn't know a minute before that I'd actually do that. That's spontaneous. Boy, there've been some spontaneous invitations to bed, too. Definitely not planned like Normandy. What you're talking about isn't spontaneity; it's just an aversion to asking. And the two biggest reasons I hear for not doing that are:

1. She (usually she) will say no (which seems a pretty good reason then for not touching her)
2. It's awkward (as is anything else you haven't practiced, but that's still not an excuse)

I think we've already dealt pretty comprehensively with "it's not romantic", as several women here have talked about how sexy and romantic it can be to be asked these things. See under "need practice".

This respond is for tarantella as well as booboo, I just don't want to attempt a multi quote thread, I'll mess it up.

I understand your point that, as kids get older, parents seem "dumber" because the challenge gets greater. Keep in mind I don't just feel that I need both genders to raise my son because I'm a male and I can't fill both roles. That's a *part* of it, but there's more to it then that. I am a single dad *with* Asperger's. I have limitations. I may not get drunk and beat on my son, but I have limitations. Honestly, if I was diagnosed with Asperger's and had to go to custody for my son, what would be the result? I've been given custody of my son by cruel nature.

I have thought about dating a single mother (actually, for some reason I find single mothers more sexy), and sometimes I feel it's the only way to go. Interestingly enough, the lady I'm dating on Sunday is a single mother. She has a 15 and a 13 year old son, but as Taratella pointed out, she also has an ex. To be quite frank, I couldn't blame her ex if he views me as a possible threat to his children. Heck, I'd feel the same way if it were me. The other issue is her kids are in their teens, and they are boys, so they might view me as a threat to their kids. With that said, I did have a girlfriend who had teen sons, and they viewed me as cool and liked me (I taught one of them to drive), but the father wasn't in the picture, and I felt the girlfriend's style and the way she handled my son was too heavy handed (she is a good mother, just has a parenting style way different then mine or the way my wife was).

As for the time limitation, this single mother has every other weekend available to her. Guess what, I have every other weekend available to me as well (as long as my son's aunt and uncle are available). Technically I could have him go every weekend to his aunt and uncle (they love him very much), but guess what, I love the kid too.

What I'm finding is if I want to date a single mother, I'd likely have to date a woman a few years younger then me at least. I'm not saying this because I'm being a perverted old guy, it's just that *literally* every single mother on eharmony has had their kids at a younger age then I did, and I'd like to avoid being involved with teenagers (especially teenage girls, speaking of *freakin* intimidating). So, just for the sake of argument, let's say the oldest child I'd like to deal with is 8 because I feel that will give me a *chance* to be something of a parental role model. Now let's say the average woman has her children at 21. That means I'm shooting for a 29 year old young lady. Hey, I have no problem with it, but the competition will be greater, and I'll have to step up my game.

As for the fact that women will feel like they are being interviewed for a mommy position, you are again right on the money. In Eharmony there are close/open ended questions that can be asked. With the first lady I communicated with on eharmony, I was asking (quite stupidly), questions about she would handle raising a little boy who lost his mommy, and would she consider him her son even if she had other kids. LOL Here I am asking questions to a strange woman about how she'll raise my kid, and also will she still love my kid if we have others. Now mind you, me not being the brightest when it comes to building relationships, it took me until the next day to say to myself, "Holy s**t, you need to take it down like 800 notches." Ironically, we are still in touch with each other through regular email. I bet you I'll even get a first date with her. One thing I can say I learned from her, she's very patient.

My son hasn't said he wants a mommy, but every now in then (especially when he gets tired), he'll cry and say he wants his mommy. This breaks my heart into a million pieces. He goes to camp twice a week at his regular school, and there are two women who do the camp. He gravitates to them like fish to water. He wants their complete attention, and he wants to be praised and loved by them. Granted he wants that from me too, but I can tell he also wants this from these two women *because* they are women.

I have thought about the church thing, and perhaps getting somebody to adopt him as an "aunt", but he already has a very involved aunt he sees pretty often. He needs somebody to tuck him in bed at night, and sometimes that person needs to have estrogen. At least that's the way I see it.

Actually, an apt driving analogy for "ask before kissing" is "signal before making a turn or a lane change."

Some really good, and dare I say, beautifully-moderated conversation at The Mary Sue about the Max Temkin case:

http://www.themarysue.com/cah-sexual-assault/

and the following is certainly well said (and a response to someone named Tony).

You essentially called him a rapist in another thread. People tend to dislike things like that, and might even hold grudges that color the way they respond to subsequent statements by such an accuser.

You forgot a few words, such as 'allegedly' or 'was accused of', as in '..as a guy who was accused of sexually assaulting a girl', unless of course you're working off of the guilty until proven innocent kangaroo court model favored by universities and such these days. Seeing as how we don't know what really happened, you also can't really say what would have made a difference, as for all we know he behaved like a perfect gentleman and his accuser is lying for reasons of her own, and reading or misreading body language had nothing to do with anything. You're really trying to shoe-horn this incident into a frame that it doesn't fit, and making a whole lot of assumptions in order to do it, to say nothing of coming very close to actionable slander if someone really felt like pursuing it.