so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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I also like to note the sheer ridiculousness of getting called on tone by tarantella, it's like Howard Stern trying to take the moral high ground on crude jokes.

you mean like the one who said that if the guy who tried to kiss her without asking first wasn't cute he would get a knee to the groin for his troubles?

if it is true that a majority of women prefer not to be asked (i'm not conceding that to be true, but for the sake of argument let's say it is) that means that a minority DO want to be asked. how does one know beforehand if the woman one has never kissed before but is about to try without asking is one of the majority or not? and if you don't know, aren't you risking sexually harassing/assaulting someone to find out if they are among that majority or not? is that an acceptable risk, to a decent human being?

say 75% of women prefer not to be asked. that means that every time you kiss a woman that you've never kissed before without asking first you are taking a 1/4 chance of making that woman uncomfortable, prompting her to assault you physically to get you away from her (like shoving you away or kneeing you in the groin, for example), and possibly prompting her to charge you with sexual harassment or worse if she didn't want you to kiss her and feels violated.

on the other hand, if you ask before you kiss someone you've never kissed before and they say yes, there is no chance that you will sexually harass/assault them. worst case scenario, you get rejected and they won't let you kiss them. the fact that so many guys are willing to risk the harassment/assault just to avoid getting rejected is disheartening to me--but it does explain why so many sexual-assaulters and date-rapists don't think of themselves as sexual-assaulters and rapists. as long as you don't hear a clear no, it's not rape or assault--right? who needs to respect a woman's boundaries when a man's fragile ego is as stake, that's for p*****s.

so go ahead guys, just take what you want, and if she feels assaulted that's HER problem, not yours.


yup, great advice.

Those of you who are so against the "ask first" idea are still overlooking the fact that this discussion was never about kissing on a first date or in an established relationship. It was about kissing (or touching) someone with whom you are in a non-romantic and/or non-sexual context, i.e., a friend, co-worker, or total stranger.

If it's a date (a designated potential romantic venue), it's likely the girl is at least somewhat expecting some type of romantic overture, but it's still best to lead up to it through less invasive actions such as leaning towards the person, touching their arm or shoulder a few times, or holding hands. An obvious signal that she's open for that is her leaning towards you or touching your hand or shoulder, or putting her hand over yours (WHEN YOU"RE ON A DATE).

Even on a date, there is always the option of asking "can I have a hug?" at the end of the date. which doesn't sound needy, creepy, or awkward in any way. If she agrees to the hug (AT THE END OF A DATE), and assuming she doesn't end it quickly (which would be a nonverbal sign that she is not comfortable with you), a kiss on the cheek would be the next step, and if that goes well, then a light kiss on the lips. Hold loosely, and if she feels like she is pulling away at any time, consider her uninterested!

I just got back from an out-of-town meeting where I visited another branch of my organization. One of the meeting participants was a single man about my age (whose branch I was visiting), and I would have sworn he was flirting with me - standing close, joking and teasing, smiling and eye contact. Until I was around him long to notice that he was also that way with all the women present, including the married ones. He was even that way with some of the men.

It was nice that I was able to figure that out, because, once I did, I was able to relax and be comfortable with him. This is not something I would have been able to do 30 years ago (read nonverbal language), but with enough experience and practice, one can learn to recognize at least the obvious clues. I watched a LOT of romance movies when I was younger so that I could try to understand what constituted flirting and what did not. It really did help.

You know, for someone who posts "don't put words in my mouth" every other post, you project an awful lot onto other people that they never said.

Times is changing, Boo. Used to be totally normal for a guy to hit his wife if he thought she was out of line. Now he gets arrested, restraining order, and won't get custody of his kids, either, if he keeps it up. During the period in which laws were going in to clarify that, plenty of women agreed that if a wife was stroppy the guy should hit her, and that if he hit her, it was her own fault.

So no, I'm not surprised by the womens' comments. But at the same time there are increasing numbers of women who'll say, "Huh? Uh...of course he should ask first. And I should too." Which means starvingartist's comment is apt. You can go find many comment threads where women would react really poorly to "don't ask"...and that's new. That doesn't mean you should ignore it. On the contrary: you're looking at the ordinary future in those threads. And I would suggest moving with the times, if only because you're going to find yourself in increasing trouble if you don't.

The better reason to do it, though, is an issue of simple respect. You may not be used to thinking of women as having sexual agency, sexual self-determination, but we do. The notion that the woman is to be "done to", and that the man is to "take the lead", might be fun as play sometimes, but as a regular mode it's quite insulting. You wouldn't routinely start a card game by shoving cards in someone's hand and saying, "come on, it's poker night, I know you wanna play"; that'd mean you were an aggressive, selfish dick. Instead you'd ask, "Want to play?" And if the answer's yes, both parties are enthusiastic -- it's something you're doing together, you're equals and friends.

I think a chronic problem on this board -- a reflection of problems elsewhere, though perhaps a little intensely -- is that y'all are looking for rules for men, and the rules you're coming up with come from a past that doesn't match the present so well anymore.

Thank you Eureka.


Tarantella, we were talking about kissing and you extended it to sex and domestic violence.

A lot of those women are young too, not of the older generation.

and why are you assuming that I am that ignorant and not use to women's sexuality and their self determination? Assuming stuff again.

Eureka13, I don't need someone telling me to treat women differently depending on what social standing I'm on with the woman. This sounds so ridiculous to have to say, but I well know that I should interpret body language very differently depending on the circumstances.

Did you miss the part where I said I once reached to tuck a girl's hair behind her ear before leaning in for a kiss (which she also leaned in for)? Did you miss the parts where I said I've reached to hold dates' hands in theater but asked afterwards if they were alright? Do you think I wouldn't have let go if their answer was negative? When I said guys preferring to be spontaneous, I didn't mean just leaning in for a kiss with no prior lead-up. I meant just doing without asking first. That doing can be anything from patting them on the arm or back, to kissing them passionately if you have adequate reason to suspect they desire it, such as "that look" in their eye or based on what the two people have already done. That doing can or cannot have any lead-up, but I'd definitely recommend there be some good indicator that it would be welcome. We're not arguing over whether there should or should not be some indicator of the woman's interest in the first place: we're arguing over what form that indicator can take.



^ Just for the record, all this isn't new information for me but I appreciate that it might be for someone else, especially on these forums.



You met a guy at work for the first time and interpreted his behavior as flirty. Do you think that were I you in your situation, I would have thought it okay to just lean in for a kiss?

"You may" is not assuming. "You do this" is assuming.

The young/old thing doesn't matter, though class does come into it. Plenty of young women were down with man-hits-wife even as the laws took effect.

Yes, we were talking about kissing, which is sexual in nature on a date. DV was brought in to illustrate how standards in gender issues change.

Any more?

Btw Eureka, we were all talking in date context, I see no one here suggesting to kiss friends and coworkers, that's something we all get it.

So what's the majority's class of the pof/loveshack women? Internet-dwellers?

Oh btw we don't work on saturdays(some work half day), unlike the other Arab countries, our weekend system is the same of Christian countries.

can you acknowledge that you are fallible, and that, as good as you may be at reading non-verbal cues, it's still possible that you might occasionally, or even just once, make a mistake and misread such cues? or are you asserting that it is absolutely impossible that you could ever make any mistake in reading the non-verbal communication of others? because if it is impossible, you are unique among humans and should have your own travelling show or something, where you read members of the audience to wow them with your absolutely infallible abilities. you could be rich and famous!

the point we are trying to make here is that no one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes (even sometimes with activities that one normally excels at, one still can occasionally get it wrong) and that in the case of first kisses and non-verbal cues by simply asking first you can avoid making such a mistake and macking on someone who actually doesn't want you to mack on them. it's just very basic courtesy.

Well, first of all, I wasn't addressing you in particular; I was addressing the forum in general.



No one has ever said "don't be spontaneous on a date." All that's been said is "if you're not sure if she will welcome your advances, it's safer to ask first." Period. That simple. If you're not sure, ask. Oh, and by the way, if you're not already on a date with her, you definitely CAN'T be sure.



That was my intent.



I have no idea if you would have or not. I do know that I absolutely would not have thought that okay, whether or not it was the first time I met him. If I thought it was okay to kiss every male (or female, for that matter) who acted flirty with me, my lips would be worn to a nub by now, not to mention which I'd possibly have some broken bones and/or a long record of assault charges.

It's really a bad idea to attempt to kiss someone in a business environment--a REALLY bad idea.

I, for one, am into spontanaiety--but I'm cautious as well. If I want to kiss someone, I like to do it "transitionally." Many younger woman are not familiar with the kissing of the hand--but women of baby-boomer age usually are delighted with it.

I would ask a woman if she would mind it if I kiss her hand. If she assents, I'll kiss it. If not, I won't. If I sense "something there," I might kiss each of the fingers on that hand. If she enjoys that, THEN I'll assess her desire to kiss me on the lips. If I sense assent, I'll go for it; if I don't, then I won't. I might also ask her if she minded if I kiss her.

All this would happen only within a "date" type of situation--or if I know the person well (i.e., for over a few months), and we're walking on a tree-lined path or something of that nature.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 18 Jul 2014, 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If we all agree on that, then what the h*ll is everyone arguing about?

It's pretty stinkin' simple - if you don't have reasonable confidence of romantic/sexual reciprocity in another person, keep your flippin' hands to yourself until you establish that they are on the same page. And by "reasonable," I mean: a) has agreed to spend time with you in a non-platonic context, and b) gives clear indication (verbally or non-verbally) that they are on board with physical contact, and c) unless you personally are adept at reading nonverbal signals, don't assume anything.

I honestly don't see what all this foofarah is about. If you're not absolutely positive, then ask. We're not saying submit a written petition asking for a kiss, or to get down on one knee and say "madam, may I have the honor of a kiss?" (although I gotta admit, I would totally give style points for that one).

We're just saying - although it's the respectful way to behave (for male or female) regardless of the circumstances, if you know you have a track record of not recognizing nonverbal communication, or a track record of misreading nonverbal communication, better safe than sorry - ask first.

Right. And I'll add to that by saying "given the rate at which women are raped and sexually assaulted and harassed, it's safe to assume you're actually not a genius at reading nonverbal 'I want it' cues. Because if you're still thinking of rape etc. as 'deviant drags woman into alley', you don't know what rape is. 'I know she wants it' accounts for much rape and other sexual assault. The problem is that the guy's sure he knows -- and he's wrong. So ask. Same if you're a woman certain that a guy wants sexual whatevers. You don't know; ask."

That's okay, just so we're clear.



If my threshold of certainty isn't met, I don't act. I don't go for it. I ride out the evening. If that means I go home without a kiss, I'm completely okay with that. My policy is "it's safer not to" whereas your policy is "it's safer to ask". So long as the same goal is met -- not making her uncomfortable or wrongfully crossing boundaries -- then I don't see a problem.



So, you're not willing to give me the presumption of having even the most basic social skills, not to try kissing strangers the first day you meet them? Thanks.



I was hoping it was a promise when you said you wouldn't reply to me anymore but gaaaaaaawd okay, let's go again.

It is precisely why I recognize that I'm not infallible that my threshold is as high as it is. There were so many opportunities where I felt I could have made something happen but I wasn't sure. I have anecdotes but I'm lazy so I won't type them out unless you ask for them. I never claimed it was impossible for me to misread cues. What I am saying is that I'm comfortable enough with myself and with my high threshold for certainty that I'm minimizing as much risk as I can without having to resort to asking, which isn't for me. Just as some women don't care for being asked, I don't care for asking. Not asking doesn't imply I don't respect boundaries. It's not a matter of, "Oh, I'm not sure if she wants me to kiss her, so I'll just go for it and come what may!" It's a matter of "I'm not sure if she wants me to kiss her so I'll hold off until my threshold has been met." My way, the only mistake I make is not getting a kiss when I wasn't quite sure I could have gotten one. You can point fingers and laugh at me that I'd rather end a date not getting a kiss when all that could have been standing in the way was asking for one, but I don't laugh at your methods. You do what works for you, and I do what works for me.