"You need to work on yourself!"

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Why should I? I believe there is at least a grain of truth to these stories.

Anyway, Marknis is not a bad-looking guy at all. He just has to adjust the attitude. His attitude at the present time will not work.

I used t think that I wasn't "loveable"---and I was told, many times, that I was not "loveable"--until I realized that people could be "loveable" for many reasons other than pure superficial looks and what may be termed "social deftness."

You said "cute IN SOME WAY. How does one define that? Is there some objective standard or measure as to what exactly that is?

I have my doubts as to whether that can be true in any non-subjective terms.

But I do agree with TGI. It does take personal responsibility to achieve what you want in life, whether that's love or anything else. That's never going to change.

In Marknis's case, saying "it takes personal responsibility" isn't really going to be helpful. Whilst true, it's not what Marknis needs or wants to hear right now. If Marknis finds true love or even a coffee date, it's going to be because someone values him for who and what he is--no different from anyone else. Marknis needs, more than finding love, to find happiness in life that doesn't hinge on any other person besides himself. If there's not a single girl out there who values him, it means nothing more than there's just not a girl out there who is worthy of him. If Marknis can learn to see his own worth, what other people think or say about him isn't going to matter. The irony of all this is that people who maintain that kind of mentality often are the kinds of people in relationships. It may not carry 100% certainty, but it's a step in the right direction.

The "Objective Standard" I referred to is the "Google Test" I mentioned -- not very scientific, but certainly easy and illustrative. So, according to Google, only "cute" can be "loveable".

Your results may vary.

Lovable depends on context.

One context is the images test; puppies are cute and lovable. Deserving of love based on appearance.

Other contexts include people who are lovable because they are kind, sweet, caring, considerate, good listeners, generous and so on.

Others are lovable due to endearing mannerisms, or having a good heart.

A more apt sentiment for this situation is To be desired, one must first be desirable.

I agree with this.

FWIW, Fnord, I actually do agree. It sounds exactly something I might have said. But it raises the question of what loveable actually means and whether that’s quantifiable. Google links to images don’t quite cut it since what counts as loveable in actual practice is more than appearance. If that were all there was to it, then either I live in an alternate reality or I’m a one-off anomaly—and there are uglier guys and gals than me who somehow manage to get together. I’m not so far down the Ayn Rand rabbit hole that I can’t comprehend the emotional and inherently irrational nature of romantic relationships. I just believe the more rational and objective people can be, the more success they’ll have and the happier they’ll be. So if Google can somehow show exact numbers that show a causative link between appearance—and by that I mean specific physical features—and loveability, I’m open to that.

I will say this, though: it really has been my experience that women who looked a certain way DID behave a certain way. These women most were certainly NOT who I wanted to be with long term. I was always told that looks don’t matter, you can’t judge a book by its cover, and everyone deserves a chance. I guess I felt that way because I felt I’d been written off because of my looks and always wanted to be given a chance. What changed my life was learning for myself that nobody DESERVES anything they didn’t earn. If a woman allowed herself to end up a certain way, there’s a reason for it, and it’s never good.

Same applies to men. Marknis doesn’t “deserve” love any more than I do or you do. If the only chance Marknis can have is the one he’s “given,” he’s a lost cause, same as I was. Having a high sense of worth and holding other people to high expectations is the only way Marknis is going to break free.

"Loveability" may not be objectively quantifiable, since it a subjective quality.Yes. And porn is an extreme form of the fallacy "appearance equals loveability".I think we all would (including the OP). I used Google as an example on a whim because, as many of us have witnessed, there are people on this website who really do associate physical attractiveness with loveability (including the OP) and who virtually beat themselves up because they equate their own ordinary appearances with being unlovable. This is wrong-thinking. Careful with the truth there; too much truth at once can earn you a spot on the list of "Detractors".

According to Google, I should be a teddy bear or a puppy in order to be loveable.

Darn!

According to Google, I'm a cute kitten.

According to Google, I'm not a person.

Fnord, I'm not worried about the list. I think I've been successfully removed from the list, although I'm not pressing my luck there. I've said all those things and more to Marknis. My frustration was that it wasn't helping and it took me some time to figure out why. I've posted before about some issues I'm having with my oldest kid. Nothing has changed IN PRINCIPLE. But, like I said, it's more about recognizing one's own value than worrying about being assigned value by someone else. I think that's what Marknis has been trying to say all along, hence why we're on "the List." I don't blame Marknis for feeling that way. I think deep down Marknis knows he's chasing the wrong issue. He just feels powerless to correct course.

"Getting a gf" would be the objective goal. You can see/feel/touch/taste/make love to a gf. Possession of a girl = personal value. The problem is that it's an irrational position, and I've said it a bazillion times: You cannot define yourself by another person. Marknis is also aware of this, but that's not going to make him FEEL any better. So if you care to get off the Detractor list, I suggest focussing on anything you can say that might help his self-esteem. Is Marknis valuable? I think that's the most important question, not whether he's lovable or desirable. Of course Marknis is both of those things. But being lovable or desirable is absurd or meaningless if you lack any value--and you might reasonably argue that you cannot be lovable or desirable without value. Who sets your value? Yourself? Or someone else? Well, the only person you have control over is yourself, and I wouldn't trust anyone else to set my personal value. If Marknis believes himself to be valuable and BEHAVES like he understands his value, other people WILL recognize that value and respond accordingly.

I also think that Marknis might be held hostage and unable to assert his independence. That's a parenting thing. If I were in his position, I'd take advantage of that for some self-reflection and strategizing as to how I'm going to get out of that mess. It's not entirely unlike where I am in life. I feel trapped where I am. And just when I think it's a good time to leave, circumstances change. I just had an arts foundation dump a load of money on me to spend how I wish, and I'm putting that towards musical instruments and a digital sound system for the school. Problem is if I leave, I'm the only one who knows how to do all this, and I'd feel like a failure if my program failed because I left before finishing the job. So...

The point being it's easy to fall into a pattern of making excuses, and sometimes there are understandable reasons why it's not in your best interest to walk out. Marknis has some ugly constraints, but he also doesn't have as much to lose as I do. I'm not stuck at my job because I'm scared of letting other people down. I'm scared of letting myself down, and this I cannot do. I guess I'm hoping that Marknis will experience a similar self-discovery.

For the non native English speakers

Maybe it's because I see the world through pea green glasses that I think everyone here is loveable.

If I wanted to set up a farm in Germany, would my tractor be a DE tractor?