09 Sep 2009, 7:17 pm
09 Sep 2009, 7:25 pm
09 Sep 2009, 7:27 pm
09 Sep 2009, 7:30 pm
09 Sep 2009, 7:31 pm
BobTheMartian wrote:
I love how everybody in this thread assumes that 14 year olds aren't people. Seriously, piss off. I've known plenty of 14 year old adults and even more 19 year old children. When I was 12 I went on a roleplaying forum and listed my age there as 20. Not because I wanted to make people to think I was more mature than I actually was; that's impossible. You cannot 'fake' maturity. It's defined by how you act. Rather, I simply wanted to be recognized for how mature I actually *was*, because no matter how mature you are people will still never take you seriously if you're young. That's just a bias they have, and sadly, the reverse does not hold true (except in the case of redneck religion-based age/sex/drinking/etc. laws)
Of course, chances are still she probably isn't, but I don't like the attitude that people here have of simply assuming that she doesn't know anything about what she wants, has no real personality, and that she will change completely in a couple of years just because of her age. By the time I was 16 My personality was pretty much complete, and I can proudly say it hasn't changed much at all since. It's only been refined a little by some pretty heavy experiences I've had in the past couple of years, but stuff like that will do a number on somebody of *any* age... It's not the age itself that does it.
Of course, the reverse also holds true... As I said before, I've known plenty of people in their twenties who still haven't grown up and likely never will.
Anyway, assuming that this girl is immature and arguing from that assumption isn't valid. I see absolutely nothing morally wrong with this relationship from the information provided. Those of you who want to 'protect the children' can get right down off of your high horses. Sex at 14 doesn't damage you at all, no more than picking your nose. It's only society's treatment of it that does if you get caught doing it, or, to the more socially vulnerable among us, the notions of wrongness that it has driven into our heads. Plenty of cultures see girls getting married at 14, and those girls are often much more mature and well off than their North American counterparts. If you get pregnant, then yeah your life can get kind of messed up, but that's a whole other story altogether, and a big reason as to why sex at that age is considered bad is tied back into the assumption about maturity... Obviously no 14 year old is going to be able to take steps or think far enough ahead to use contraception reliably.
Really, sex is not that big a deal; not nearly as much as lots of people make it out to be. It's merely society once again putting it on a pedestal because of traditional and religious influences that have managed to echo into modern ones.
However, to get back on topic, the arguments that society, ignorant as it is, will mess with you at any chance it gets just because it's a douchebag are valid. It's not right, or fair, and if you're willing to take a stand against that and do it on principle, then all the more power to you. But the risks are very real, and from your posts you don't seem desperate enough for them to be worth it to you.
I'd stick with your original solution and try to maintain a very casual relationship until such time as you *are* able to circumvent the ridiculous age laws. The ironic part is that because of the thoughtless impudence with which they were structured it's actually pretty easy to get around them by virtue of the fact that in reality they don't mean squat. Once she turns sixteen, if you're still on the same page, then go to town. I'd advise you to be careful though because, as has been stated, even if you *do* hold off until then, society might still try to insinuate that you were doing stuff before that time.
It's kind of ridiculous that one day, something could be illegal, and then the next day, despite absolutely nothing having changed, it magically becomes legal. Expecting two different outcomes from the same source input is the definition of insanity, but hey, life is nuts. And since, most of the time, that's where life is going to kick you, you might as well take every opportunity you can get to exploit the insanity when it runs in your favor.
you make alot of good points society-wise, even if it did get a bit off-topic.
Of course, chances are still she probably isn't, but I don't like the attitude that people here have of simply assuming that she doesn't know anything about what she wants, has no real personality, and that she will change completely in a couple of years just because of her age. By the time I was 16 My personality was pretty much complete, and I can proudly say it hasn't changed much at all since. It's only been refined a little by some pretty heavy experiences I've had in the past couple of years, but stuff like that will do a number on somebody of *any* age... It's not the age itself that does it.
Of course, the reverse also holds true... As I said before, I've known plenty of people in their twenties who still haven't grown up and likely never will.
Anyway, assuming that this girl is immature and arguing from that assumption isn't valid. I see absolutely nothing morally wrong with this relationship from the information provided. Those of you who want to 'protect the children' can get right down off of your high horses. Sex at 14 doesn't damage you at all, no more than picking your nose. It's only society's treatment of it that does if you get caught doing it, or, to the more socially vulnerable among us, the notions of wrongness that it has driven into our heads. Plenty of cultures see girls getting married at 14, and those girls are often much more mature and well off than their North American counterparts. If you get pregnant, then yeah your life can get kind of messed up, but that's a whole other story altogether, and a big reason as to why sex at that age is considered bad is tied back into the assumption about maturity... Obviously no 14 year old is going to be able to take steps or think far enough ahead to use contraception reliably.
Really, sex is not that big a deal; not nearly as much as lots of people make it out to be. It's merely society once again putting it on a pedestal because of traditional and religious influences that have managed to echo into modern ones.However, to get back on topic, the arguments that society, ignorant as it is, will mess with you at any chance it gets just because it's a douchebag are valid. It's not right, or fair, and if you're willing to take a stand against that and do it on principle, then all the more power to you. But the risks are very real, and from your posts you don't seem desperate enough for them to be worth it to you.
I'd stick with your original solution and try to maintain a very casual relationship until such time as you *are* able to circumvent the ridiculous age laws. The ironic part is that because of the thoughtless impudence with which they were structured it's actually pretty easy to get around them by virtue of the fact that in reality they don't mean squat. Once she turns sixteen, if you're still on the same page, then go to town. I'd advise you to be careful though because, as has been stated, even if you *do* hold off until then, society might still try to insinuate that you were doing stuff before that time.
It's kind of ridiculous that one day, something could be illegal, and then the next day, despite absolutely nothing having changed, it magically becomes legal. Expecting two different outcomes from the same source input is the definition of insanity, but hey, life is nuts. And since, most of the time, that's where life is going to kick you, you might as well take every opportunity you can get to exploit the insanity when it runs in your favor.
it was an interesting read
09 Sep 2009, 7:43 pm
SINsister wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
She won't know what the hell she wants from life, or be able to make reasonable decisions until the first year of college. Everyone grows up fast when they are on their own.
By your line of reasoning, I'm still 14. Perhaps that's an accurate assessment...
I'm sorry I don't follow?
Quote:
That basically is saying that she isn't a person, not to be taken seriously, respected, or considered to be in control of her own life or have any rights, and it's still precisely the attitude that I have a problem with. Not everybody grows up fast when they're 'on their own', and not everybody fails to grow up before they're 'on their own'. You can't say that she doesn't know what she wants or can't make reasonable decisions, and you certainly can't say that people in college can do either of those things, because from my experience, they usually still can't.
Not exactly.
A 14yo, or even a newborn baby, is a person and they have every right you and I have. It has nothing to do with adulthood.
However, a 14 year old is not to be taken seriously, nor are they in control of their lives, nor are they respected by the adults, and they most assuredly aren't able to make rational decisions. Kids have much to learn and that is why they are sent to school and why they are stuck in parent's households for 18 years. This is pretty much self evident. Besides the law says they aren't able to consent, and that's all there is to it.
09 Sep 2009, 8:10 pm
09 Sep 2009, 8:20 pm
Dilbert wrote:
SINsister wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
She won't know what the hell she wants from life, or be able to make reasonable decisions until the first year of college. Everyone grows up fast when they are on their own.
By your line of reasoning, I'm still 14. Perhaps that's an accurate assessment...
I'm sorry I don't follow?
Quote:
That basically is saying that she isn't a person, not to be taken seriously, respected, or considered to be in control of her own life or have any rights, and it's still precisely the attitude that I have a problem with. Not everybody grows up fast when they're 'on their own', and not everybody fails to grow up before they're 'on their own'. You can't say that she doesn't know what she wants or can't make reasonable decisions, and you certainly can't say that people in college can do either of those things, because from my experience, they usually still can't.
Not exactly.
A 14yo, or even a newborn baby, is a person and they have every right you and I have. It has nothing to do with adulthood.
However, a 14 year old is not to be taken seriously, nor are they in control of their lives, nor are they respected by the adults, and they most assuredly aren't able to make rational decisions. Kids have much to learn and that is why they are sent to school and why they are stuck in parent's households for 18 years. This is pretty much self evident. Besides the law says they aren't able to consent, and that's all there is to it.
it would seem he's an adult but according to your criteria he "might just be a 14 yr old" after all.
09 Sep 2009, 8:24 pm
Seanmw wrote:
sinister was being sarcastic i think.
it would seem he's an adult but according to your criteria he "might just be a 14 yr old" after all.
it would seem he's an adult but according to your criteria he "might just be a 14 yr old" after all.
That's SINsister (or Sister Sin, if that helps), and it's "she."
And yes, Sean, you've nailed it.
09 Sep 2009, 8:59 pm
09 Sep 2009, 9:30 pm
Dilbert wrote:
SINsister wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
She won't know what the hell she wants from life, or be able to make reasonable decisions until the first year of college. Everyone grows up fast when they are on their own.
By your line of reasoning, I'm still 14. Perhaps that's an accurate assessment...
I'm sorry I don't follow?
Quote:
That basically is saying that she isn't a person, not to be taken seriously, respected, or considered to be in control of her own life or have any rights, and it's still precisely the attitude that I have a problem with. Not everybody grows up fast when they're 'on their own', and not everybody fails to grow up before they're 'on their own'. You can't say that she doesn't know what she wants or can't make reasonable decisions, and you certainly can't say that people in college can do either of those things, because from my experience, they usually still can't.
Not exactly.
A 14yo, or even a newborn baby, is a person and they have every right you and I have. It has nothing to do with adulthood.
However, a 14 year old is not to be taken seriously, nor are they in control of their lives, nor are they respected by the adults, and they most assuredly aren't able to make rational decisions. Kids have much to learn and that is why they are sent to school and why they are stuck in parent's households for 18 years. This is pretty much self evident. Besides the law says they aren't able to consent, and that's all there is to it.
That is nonsense.
09 Sep 2009, 10:10 pm
SINsister wrote:
Seanmw wrote:
sinister was being sarcastic i think.
it would seem he's an adult but according to your criteria he "might just be a 14 yr old" after all.
it would seem he's an adult but according to your criteria he "might just be a 14 yr old" after all.
That's SINsister (or Sister Sin, if that helps), and it's "she."
And yes, Sean, you've nailed it.
i read your name wrong
sorryyy
09 Sep 2009, 10:40 pm
Seanmw wrote:
SINsister wrote:
Seanmw wrote:
sinister was being sarcastic i think.
it would seem he's an adult but according to your criteria he "might just be a 14 yr old" after all.
it would seem he's an adult but according to your criteria he "might just be a 14 yr old" after all.
That's SINsister (or Sister Sin, if that helps), and it's "she."
And yes, Sean, you've nailed it.
i read your name wrong
sorryyy
No worries, man.
09 Sep 2009, 10:56 pm
Yagaloth wrote:
(Ah, criminy, here I go again: I'm about to step on toes and rock boats, and really make some people mad and hurt the feelings of others. It happens to me every few months like clockwork, and even when I realize I'm doing it I can't stop myself and plow right into it with glee, as I simply can't resist it. This is one of my greatest weaknesses.)
I don't think anyone here has accused you of being a creep.
But even if a bunch of people had jumped up to "lynch" you, that alone should tell you something: even if you just appear to cross into that territory, it can provoke a very strong reaction, and if strangers react that way, imagine how the girl's family will react, and how judges and juries will react. If you really believe that a jury of your peers, the members of the WrongPlanet community, has replied accusing you of being a perverted creep, that should set off alarms for you whether you feel they are right or wrong about you.
She lied about her age. That lie might not ultimately be a big problem, but that sets off alarm bells for me: what else is she capable of lying about, and what other frustrating or unpleasant surprises can you expect to discover about her?
She's a girl on the the other side of the internet, and, if I understand you right, you've never met her in person. That might not be a problem in most cases, but I try to set myself a wide safety zone around myself where people I've never met are concerned: internet people who start to get too close set off alarm bells for me, as we are all ultimately unfamiliar strangers who have a lot more time to carefully pick and choose what we allow others to know about ourselves than a more personal meeting could allow. Not that a face-to-face meeting with her could anytime soon could possibly be a good idea, either, for reasons that are all too obvious to you.
Maybe she really is who she is now saying she is, a 14-year-old girl, but then again, maybe she's still not who she says she is. Maybe she's a police detective, or maybe "she" is a criminal waiting until you meet him someplace in person, where he will attack and mug you or worse, knowing it will be a difficult crime for you to report without explaining to the authorities why you were really there to begin with. (Sure, maybe you don't plan on meeting this girl in person before she seems old enough, but I doubt I could resist meeting someone I love in person if given a chance, and I'm not convinced you could, either.) It's a cold, impersonal, and unfair world out there, and it's full of people, both well-meaning and evil, waiting for anyone, including you, to get careless and slip up just one time; that reality sets off my alarms.
In a way, I almost wish this girl were as child-like and immature as other posters suggested you could expect from a minor, but it seems clear to me that this girl has done a masterful job of giving you precisely the attention you want, and hitting all your right buttons. That's not actually a bad thing in a girl your own age, but to me that sets off alarms when it comes from a minor, because the problem may not be that she doesn't know what she wants, but rather that she knows exactly what she wants and exactly how to get it from you. If you have the maturity and strength to ignore the advances of a precocious 14-year-old then the dilemma of how to handle the situation would actually be a non-problem, as your path would be quite clear.
And that brings me to the fact that you started this thread nominally to get an honest opinions and advice, but then you seemed to get upset at the people who gave you honest opinions and advice you didn't want to hear sets off alarms for me. Though he was trying to make a completely different point, BobTheMartian inadvertently provided a reason for you to walk away that nobody else may have considered: there's a danger that this 14-year-old girl may be too mature for you, in a world that will have little or no sympathy for you if that relationship somehow goes wrong for you.
You might very well be on or even below the emotional level of a 14-year-old girl, but my opinion is that there is just way too much that can go wrong for you with such a relationship, and very very little that can go right, even if you try to keep it platonic. My advice is to run, not walk, away from this situation as quickly as possible. I think you'll be safer and happier by seeking out a legally adult woman with the same level of maturity as a 19-year-old you, rather than a minor with at least that level of maturity. That may seem like an un-diplomatic or even cruel thing for me to say about you (and maybe it even is more blunt and cruel than it needed to be, but I don't know any other way to say it.) But to me you don't seem like a bad guy, and the world is full of legally adult but emotionally immature women who would really fare better with you than with insecure and manipulative older men who would care far less about them as human beings than you would, without the risk. Sure, there's a temptation to think there's only one true love for each of us out there, but I think you'll find that simply isn't true, and the are lots of nice women out there who can in the long run provide you far more, with far less risk.
Sadly, after reading your reactions my instincts tell me that my thoughts and advice will upset you more than those of anyone else who replied before me, and I doubt that I can convince you even that I'm at least sincere in writing them, let alone possibly right about any them. Thus, all I can do is try my best, and hope that nothing regrettable happens to either you or the girl when you choose to do whatever you want.
well, she's not "pushing my buttons" really. i just like her persoanlity. honesty. she's not offering me anything to tempt me, and i like that. it's refreshing after being barraged with messages from sluts. and i respect her the more for it.
I don't think anyone here has accused you of being a creep.
But even if a bunch of people had jumped up to "lynch" you, that alone should tell you something: even if you just appear to cross into that territory, it can provoke a very strong reaction, and if strangers react that way, imagine how the girl's family will react, and how judges and juries will react. If you really believe that a jury of your peers, the members of the WrongPlanet community, has replied accusing you of being a perverted creep, that should set off alarms for you whether you feel they are right or wrong about you.
She lied about her age. That lie might not ultimately be a big problem, but that sets off alarm bells for me: what else is she capable of lying about, and what other frustrating or unpleasant surprises can you expect to discover about her?
She's a girl on the the other side of the internet, and, if I understand you right, you've never met her in person. That might not be a problem in most cases, but I try to set myself a wide safety zone around myself where people I've never met are concerned: internet people who start to get too close set off alarm bells for me, as we are all ultimately unfamiliar strangers who have a lot more time to carefully pick and choose what we allow others to know about ourselves than a more personal meeting could allow. Not that a face-to-face meeting with her could anytime soon could possibly be a good idea, either, for reasons that are all too obvious to you.
Maybe she really is who she is now saying she is, a 14-year-old girl, but then again, maybe she's still not who she says she is. Maybe she's a police detective, or maybe "she" is a criminal waiting until you meet him someplace in person, where he will attack and mug you or worse, knowing it will be a difficult crime for you to report without explaining to the authorities why you were really there to begin with. (Sure, maybe you don't plan on meeting this girl in person before she seems old enough, but I doubt I could resist meeting someone I love in person if given a chance, and I'm not convinced you could, either.) It's a cold, impersonal, and unfair world out there, and it's full of people, both well-meaning and evil, waiting for anyone, including you, to get careless and slip up just one time; that reality sets off my alarms.
In a way, I almost wish this girl were as child-like and immature as other posters suggested you could expect from a minor, but it seems clear to me that this girl has done a masterful job of giving you precisely the attention you want, and hitting all your right buttons. That's not actually a bad thing in a girl your own age, but to me that sets off alarms when it comes from a minor, because the problem may not be that she doesn't know what she wants, but rather that she knows exactly what she wants and exactly how to get it from you. If you have the maturity and strength to ignore the advances of a precocious 14-year-old then the dilemma of how to handle the situation would actually be a non-problem, as your path would be quite clear.
And that brings me to the fact that you started this thread nominally to get an honest opinions and advice, but then you seemed to get upset at the people who gave you honest opinions and advice you didn't want to hear sets off alarms for me. Though he was trying to make a completely different point, BobTheMartian inadvertently provided a reason for you to walk away that nobody else may have considered: there's a danger that this 14-year-old girl may be too mature for you, in a world that will have little or no sympathy for you if that relationship somehow goes wrong for you.
You might very well be on or even below the emotional level of a 14-year-old girl, but my opinion is that there is just way too much that can go wrong for you with such a relationship, and very very little that can go right, even if you try to keep it platonic. My advice is to run, not walk, away from this situation as quickly as possible. I think you'll be safer and happier by seeking out a legally adult woman with the same level of maturity as a 19-year-old you, rather than a minor with at least that level of maturity. That may seem like an un-diplomatic or even cruel thing for me to say about you (and maybe it even is more blunt and cruel than it needed to be, but I don't know any other way to say it.) But to me you don't seem like a bad guy, and the world is full of legally adult but emotionally immature women who would really fare better with you than with insecure and manipulative older men who would care far less about them as human beings than you would, without the risk. Sure, there's a temptation to think there's only one true love for each of us out there, but I think you'll find that simply isn't true, and the are lots of nice women out there who can in the long run provide you far more, with far less risk.
Sadly, after reading your reactions my instincts tell me that my thoughts and advice will upset you more than those of anyone else who replied before me, and I doubt that I can convince you even that I'm at least sincere in writing them, let alone possibly right about any them. Thus, all I can do is try my best, and hope that nothing regrettable happens to either you or the girl when you choose to do whatever you want.
and i'm not disregarding negative views. i take them in and weigh them carefully all the same. they just haven't really shattered my resolution yet with their unmasked cynicism. notice i paid attention also to those who looked at it from BOTH sides.
and i know she's who she says she is. i saw her at the county fair, we just didn't talk is all. it was in passing, but enough to verify by.
so, yeah, she's not some man in disguise out to rape me either
i'm sorta surprised i read all that. it was long. also well thought out. it touched on alot of bases and you made some good points. but so have i.
thanks for your input. it added some new dimensions and perspective
09 Sep 2009, 11:35 pm
SINsister wrote:
Seanmw wrote:
sinister was being sarcastic i think.
it would seem he's an adult but according to your criteria he "might just be a 14 yr old" after all.
it would seem he's an adult but according to your criteria he "might just be a 14 yr old" after all.
That's SINsister (or Sister Sin, if that helps), and it's "she."
And yes, Sean, you've nailed it.
Now I'm really confused. Didn't you say you were 40 or something like that?
First year of college was a euphemism for being 18 or 19 and moving out of parent's house. I did not mean to imply that a college degree is a requirement for entering adulthood. That would be a silly thing to say. (A college degree is a nice piece of paper to have indeed... it gives you more employment opportunities and more power to negotiate your salary. But about that some other time...)
Who_Am_I wrote:
That is nonsense.
Get back to me in 10 years and then we'll see what your opinion is.
A 14 year old is an itty bitty baby!
09 Sep 2009, 11:40 pm
Who_Am_I wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
SINsister wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
She won't know what the hell she wants from life, or be able to make reasonable decisions until the first year of college. Everyone grows up fast when they are on their own.
By your line of reasoning, I'm still 14. Perhaps that's an accurate assessment...
I'm sorry I don't follow?
Quote:
That basically is saying that she isn't a person, not to be taken seriously, respected, or considered to be in control of her own life or have any rights, and it's still precisely the attitude that I have a problem with. Not everybody grows up fast when they're 'on their own', and not everybody fails to grow up before they're 'on their own'. You can't say that she doesn't know what she wants or can't make reasonable decisions, and you certainly can't say that people in college can do either of those things, because from my experience, they usually still can't.
Not exactly.
A 14yo, or even a newborn baby, is a person and they have every right you and I have. It has nothing to do with adulthood.
However, a 14 year old is not to be taken seriously, nor are they in control of their lives, nor are they respected by the adults, and they most assuredly aren't able to make rational decisions. Kids have much to learn and that is why they are sent to school and why they are stuck in parent's households for 18 years. This is pretty much self evident. Besides the law says they aren't able to consent, and that's all there is to it.
That is nonsense.
can't just categorize people.
it's like saying gypsies are all thieves. not necessarily true.
a reputation for that, but it varies from person to person.
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