Could you be loved?

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That sounds like the silliest manual for attracting men ever.

^It's not such a bad idea, as long as she is honest in the beginning, and states that it's just an interest, and that she's not very knowledgeable about the subject. I have a very sensitve 'BS detector', and would be suspicious when I realized that she was lying. The odds aren't very good, if I lose trust, right from the beginning. It's always better to be honest.

I agree!

I know what you're saying, though I have a few NT friend who, yes, they're tough though they may or may not immediately look it (which same here, I look like a Toby McGwire character on a lot of levels, for some better but mostly worse). One of my friends has mentioned a few incidents where we got little out of the way comments from people when we were down in the club district - mostly to the effect that because he and I were chilling rather than doing the chachy thing and trying to storm around looking pissed with popped collars - people were making assumptions that we were gay.

Magnus said something a while back about being out with a friend who had been an alpha but was in a wheel chair, she'd never in her life been hit on more by other guys than when she was in a bar with a guy in a wheelchair. I think that also works as commentary on on sincerity - ie. it smells like weakness, unless a particular aspie guy happens to be a sincere a***hole. I actually started a thread a while back because I realized that even if I could defend myself, as long as I could only defend myself as well as the average guy I'd likely be dragged into fights or accosted on a regular basis for even being out on a date, its happened, but its also another reason why in theory - yes - I will have to be 'better' than most NT's, otherwise I simply won't be forgiven for looking nimbish.

This is part of why I've gotten big into the martial arts and weights, partly because I want to have the confidence beaming out of my eyes to where the psychological war is one more often and more easily but also, if I can't, I likely will be growing old with no kids - it would help if I liked church girls or geek girls who look the part but, for what my personality is I'm really better off doing what I'm doing than trying to pretend that I fit in to the social sphere of libraries, coffee shops, and animae conventions; those aren't me and I'd be miserable with what I'd get.

@Toad - I guess it's easy to think that somehow the NT world is where the cool kids sit in the cafeteria, and the Aspie world is on the outside looking in - but that's not true. If the NT world is 99% of the population, then you've got to realize that every segment of society is represented in the NT "world" - and there's lots of people who are disenfranchised in it. Yes, there are people who put on a big show and pretend to be who they're not in order to attract a mate, or get ahead professionally, or get elected to the school board, or whatever. I admit it - I always hope those people get repaid in kind for their deception.

It never makes sense to pretend you're someone you're not, or that you're interested in people or things that you're not. You're right - everyone risks a huge heartbreak playing those types of stupid games. I don't play games, I'm not coy, I don't say "yes" when I mean "no" and "no" when I mean "yes".....IMO, all that crap comes down to one thing: power. Who's going to control the relationship; who's going to "get theirs"; who's going to "win" - it's just mean and selfish. Yes, there are people who play them, but there are lots of lots of NTs who wouldn't be caught dead doing that shiz. So take heart - there are plenty of people who are living with honesty and integrity out here.

I can't speak for Toad, but on past occasions, he's said that even making any kind of change, as far as becoming a happier person if it doesn't come natural to you, is a phony, and that is way off.

This has nothing to do with the argument several of us had over prescription drugs, I'm talking in general and just making yourself more interesting for yourself, not so others will notice.

These are good points, the problem is that they take two people - communication is a two-way street, and also there has to be someone interested in making the journey with you. The one girl that was ever interested in making a journey with me, she never reciprocated communication - I was left with the burden of trying to read her mind to figure out what she wanted or how she felt, both about minor things and major ones, she would lie in response to a straight question, and instead of admitting her insecurities were her own, she implicitly blamed me for them. The result was an ever-increasing set of topics I avoided because delving into them only caused trouble without resolving anything.


Part of what makes me think my issues are essentially unresolvable is that there is no obvious cause to blame. People with much, much harder childhoods than mine are infinitely better-adjusted. I wasn't sexually abused or anything, I was bullied in school but nothing like some people here. Yet I've still managed to be extremely lonely.

@pbcoll - I agree with you - it takes two to communicate, and we're all empowered to make the decisions for only one....which kinda sucks.

To your other point about the impact of your childhood....you really can't compare that type of cause/effect on an objective basis from one person to the next. Your character, your sensitivities, your coping skills, your imagination, your special interests....all the things that uniquely combine to make you who you are - those elements of your personality reacted differently to what you were subjected to than anyone else would. Any other person may have been impacted less severely, or more severely to the exact same situations. The way you responded is valid, and it's real - you couldn't have responded in any other way, and the impact is what it is. It was profound for you. I wouldn't value judge that if I were you....I'd accept it and see what there may be done to help repair the damage.

I think you may have explained the crux of it here in explaining that prior relationship; you sound like a great person but I think its exactly what you indicated, ie. being straight and literal rather than 'guiling' your way through conversation. The later seems to be the implanted 'this is the only right way to do things' in our culture, I don't know if its to a more or lesser degree in the UK than in the U.S. though I'd imagine it could be slightly more, though I also get the impression that the need to have much more guile than frank communication is rooted in the idea that people don't want a 'relationship' so much as a daydream or fantasy brought to real life (I guess that levels the UK's advantage on complex wit - we likely have similar amounts of that on both sides of the pond).

I think the only thing I'd recommend is understand what you want to say, who you want to be, but at the same time work on figuring out how to deal with other people's guile or absolute need for it from you. I can say that I still haven't done great in this category, I at least know how not to ask certain things and seem like I'm in the know but that comes at the price of clipping a lot of bridges for the sake of not treading on territory where the chance of being exposed is too high.

Of course ultimately it sounds like you really don't want to be with someone who needs this twenty-four seven, I don't blame you at all on that. Still, even for women who are more down to earth I know you'll want to at least be able to have enough to lighten up conversations if they might have been too uncomfortable otherwise or at least to show her that you have the capacity for such complexity but that your sentiments are that its just not practical for a healthy relationship to chase all metacommunication away summarily as if its this instant buzzkill. You may of course be already set in all of the above, if that's the case, I'd just say keep your eyes open and get to know what you're looking for so it won't pass you by if you find it.

Sure, not perfect. But look at the title of this thread "Could you be Loved?" . And reading your opening post, it contains a clear implication that the answer is "No, not as we are" as you have then gone on to talk about the work and effort we need to do to presumably correct our unlovable-ness.

Maybe I'm naive but I thought a big part of love was about accepting someone as they are. I believe one difference between many people here and the proverbial NT's is that we don't *believe* we are as loveable as NT's, exactly as we are. That we need to become *other*, by however means, presumably years in therapy. As you say, just about everybody is 'messed up' in some way.

The mystery is how the typical NT(whatever their flaws) can manage to get into relationships apparently with much more ease than the typical Aspie. I guess because the flaws of AS (introversion, social awkwardness, odd mannerisms etc) are, in our culture, just considered less attractive than the flaws of NT's (lack of integrity, status seeking, narcissism etc etc ).

@ManErg - The title of this post is taken from a Bob Marley song. Sorry, there's no clear implication here - there's only an inference you're making that my message is that Aspies cannot be loved, and that's not my message at all.

The point I was trying to make with this thread is: if an Aspie has no coping skills, comes from a dysfunctional background, has been diagnosed with a mental illness, etc., - those issues are going to be more of challenge than Asperger's when it comes to forming successful intimate relationships. If Aspies don't address those issues, then even when/if a partner comes along, the Aspie in question will have difficulty achieving true intimacy - just like any NT would who has those issues and hasn't addressed them. So why not address those issues now, to avoid suffering through a difficult relationship?

My goal is not to make Aspies pretend to be NTs - it's to encourage Aspies to be as emotionally healthy and functional as possible. That will help Aspies avoid being taken advantage of by an abuser, or actually becoming an abuser.

As to your quote, "Maybe I'm naive but I thought a big part of love was about accepting someone as they are," please take a look at a thread I started called "The Unfortunate Myth of Unconditional Love." There's acceptance, and then there's acceptance, and I kinda stated my case for that concept in that thread.

And finally, with respect to your statement that, "the flaws of NT's (lack of integrity, status seeking, narcissism etc etc )," - those flaws are not isolated to NTs. Having Asperger's says something about the way your brain works - it doesn't say a thing about your character.

You can get no meaningful answer to *that* question until you have answered this one (to quote the Howard Jones song): "What is Love?"

Given the context of this sub-forum, perhaps it would be better phrased as "Could you be desired?".



OK, but one of the key points of Aspergers is that it has been called an "invisible disability". There are many with AS, myself included, who DO have coping skills, have no "mental illness" etc etc. We are qualified, supporting ourselves, even having good careers - yet still our relationship history varies from "non existant" to "patchy" at best. I spent years in therapy *before* my AS diagnosis. Not one therapist ever said I had a 'mental illness' - not one even mentioned AS, I found that myself. None could offer any insight into my relationship problems, either. So this would suggest there are no 'glaring' problems. Meanwhile those *with* glaring problems are onto marriage number 4......

There are many here who don;t show any sign of 'mental illness' - their main problem is that they are driving themselves crazy due to being ignored and rejected for no immediately apparent reason! What is so difficult about just openly admitting that as some people are *more* attractive, others are *less* attractive - completely outside of 'dysfunction' and 'mental illness'? There are plenty of incidents of people - both male and female - with highly dubious characters, but who the opposite sex finds irresistably attractive. So the other side to that coin is people who are generally all round decent, don't have skeletons in the closet, are not abusive, but somehow, just aren't attractive. We can't all be equally intelligent. We can't all be equally good at basketball. Why do we assume that we could all be equally attractive and that if we're not, the problem is correctable by buying some books and a DVD course....?



It's a generalisation, sure. But if anybody measured it, I'm sure that the levels of narcissism and dishonesty would be *much* lower in the AS population than the NT. And it's known that the levels of introversion are much higher in the AS population, together with things like physical cooridination problems. I'm saying that merely as an observation, not a judgement of 'right and wrong', that when it comes to being 'desired by the opposite sex', introversion etc etc are 'generally' big turn-offs in our culture, in many cases even bigger turn offs than being a manipulative, deceitful sociopath. Better to seek out the rare jewels who are also immune to the social conditioning.

Some say that rates of narcissism and attention-seeking are soaring in the young of the US. http://www.sdsuniverse.info/sdsuniverse ... px?s=71137 Would you *want* to be loved by these dysfunctional people?

But it doesn't change the fact that my personal code of ethics isn't compatible with what society expects men to do in order to find women, which is why I won't get anywhere in life unless I compromise my ethics and risk sociopathy.


Where are the women like you hiding? Or are there any like you and in their 20s at all? Actually no that would be a futile endeavor on my part because women like that would probably be taken by now...


And that's exactly the kind of behavior I'm afraid I would slip into if I allow any self-love into my life. I was like this once as a kid, so there definitely is a history for this kind of stuff...

And I know quite a few of those people... At my church... Where everyone that's not a kid is over the age of 30 and already married with kids of their own. Every other place I've been to has people that aren't like this.

@Toad - There is a chasm about the size of the Grand Canyon between asking someone to go for a cup of coffee and sociopathic behavior. You know that. You know that, Toad.

"And that's exactly the kind of behavior I'm afraid I would slip into if I allow any self-love into my life. I was like this once as a kid, so there definitely is a history for this kind of stuff..."

There is no connection between "self-love" and being a controlling, power freak. In fact, it's just the opposite. People who feel the need to control others often do so precisely because they refuse to control themselves - to manage their own life. They use controlling others as a distraction from their own problems and issues - if they spend all their time worrying about their partner, child, employee, best friend, etc., then they won't have to pay attention to the issues they need to face, but don't want to. So....do you love yourself if you won't repair your emotional damage, or heal your dysfunctional way of living? NO!

"Where are the women like you hiding? Or are there any like you and in their 20s at all? Actually no that would be a futile endeavor on my part because women like that would probably be taken by now..."

We're not hiding, hon. We're out in the world, living our lives. We're the ones who are going to the gym when we don't want to, shopping for groceries, commuting to work, taking a class, crossing the street. We're happy in relationships and we're striking out. We're everywhere Toad - all you have to do is look around. If you're not seeing us, you need to change your location. Stop limiting yourself by looking for a partner at the one place you know you'll never find her: your church. I understand the whole concept of intimate relationships is frightening and intimidating to you, Toad. Join the club. But the biggest handicap you have is not Asperger's - it's fear. Fear of rejection, fear of intimacy, fear of failure, fear of the unknown. And as long as you reinforce this notion you have that you can only find a woman to date at your church, you'll remain alone. I'm sorry, but that's the master you serve: fear. The good news is you can choose to stop serving that master any time you'd like. The first step to stopping your servitude: accept that you're going to fail, Toad. Accept that you're going to be rejected. We all fail and we all experience rejection - and we all survive.

*High five for HopeGrows!*
Superb.

Also, Toad, even if you were jerk when you were a kid, you're not a kid anymore. You're smarter, more aware, more capable, more empathetic than before. You're not giving yourself credit for capacity to find the middle-ground. Other people can do it. Why shouldn't you be able to?
AS? Nope.

@ManErg - What am I going to do with you?

This thread isn't really about desire or attraction - it's about what happens as the desire and attraction fades. That's when you have to figure out if you and your mate have the ability to establish and maintain true intimacy.

I understand and accept that Asperger's is not trivial. I also understand and accept that there are real and immutable symptoms, like having special interests, having difficulty reading facial expressions, having difficulty interpreting the non-verbal subtext of communication, etc. There also seems to be an issue with inflexibility - in terms of routines and even thoughts/ideas. If I had to pick one of the traits that would probably pose the biggest problem to being in a relationship, it would be the lack of flexibility. That's because relationships are all about learning and adjusting and creating and balance. I don't think that's an insurmountable issue - by any means - but I think it requires special attention and hard work to manage.

I also accept that there are some people who are just not that attractive, but I don't see that as attributable to being Aspie. Introversion or shyness is not an unappealing male trait to every woman out there. The traits I find most attractive in a man? Intelligence, humor, nice (as in reasonably well adjusted and kind). Notice the lack of "life of the party" or "he-man" or "sales rep" in the list. Did you also notice that "hunky stud" was not in the list? And that's the list of a woman who is smart, funny, successful, and reasonably attractive.

But I don't accept that Aspies can't have and maintain successful intimate relationships. Aspie-ness alone does not preclude that. Basing my opinion on the posts I've read on this forum, a much greater impediment is that perhaps Aspies attribute dysfunction to their Aspie-ness, rather than to the true source: abuse (which is treatable). Another huge source of trouble for Aspies in relationships: putting an inordinate amount of trust in their partner, when their partner is unworthy of that trust. One does not have to be Aspie to make that mistake, but the impact of it can be much more devastating to an Aspie. Again, this impediment is completely avoidable.

At least now I understand why you're so against therapy. But seriously, you don't think your therapists were just incompetent? Not one of them diagnosed you with a mental disorder or AS? Why on earth did they think they were treating you? Your own wife didn't catch on that there was a problem? I'm sorry, but I wouldn't want her or any of her friends to treat me.

And I don't agree that the levels of narcissism and dishonesty are much lower in the AS population than the NT population - although I have no empirical data or study to back that up - just my own experience. I was engaged to a man whom I'm quite certain is Aspie. He lied his a$$ off on a regular basis. He also came from an extraordinarily dysfunctional family. I was treated medically by an Aspie, and he avidly pursued a personal relationship with me while I was his patient - a violation of the code of conduct for his profession, and his marriage vows. And I dated a diagnosed Aspie who turned out to be an absolutely gifted and spiteful liar (again - dysfunctional family background). So I don't accept that there's anything about being Aspie that makes a person better psychologically or morally than your average NT. I believe character is the outcome of how a person is parented, and dysfunction and abuse are equal opportunity destroyers.