Should protitution be legal?

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So you make prostitutes have to carry licenses which can only be obtained with proof of age and residency, problem mostly solved.

the prostitutes in netherlands are registered. it did not help.

If that's not enough then make them go through a form of bootcamp where they are cut out from the outside world and if they show signs of being forced into it or anything of that nature throw them into a relocation program or something.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but based on your response I don't think the word "paternalistic" means what you think it does.



Did I say I was in favor of legalizing those things? In fact those are two of the things that I would direct police resources that were freed up by no longer conducting such time wasters as hooker sweeps and sting operations into suppressing.

Outside of the addressed quotes Hyper, I'd like to point out that your position on prostitution seems to rest on a perfection fallacy, where in you reject any proposed approaches to dealing with the subject that are not perfect. Legalization is not perfect, but neither is prohibition, and frankly I for one am convinced that prohibition is the more harmful of the two; judging from the responses you get in the various threads where this topic has been broached I'm far from alone in that belief. Just think about it a bit.

prostitution, whether legal or illegal, is a trade that is governed by men (the pimps do not magically disappear, and indeed the government becomes a form of pimp). the customers are men, and drive the demand for different products and prices. it's paternalistic either way. oh, and i really don't care if others agree with you. it does not make you perspective correct. the problems that legalization intends to fix are largely exacerbated instead. there is no reason to have patience with idealism

let me make an analogy. if drug legalization caused increased crime, higher levels of drug abuse, increased overdoses and accidental poisoning of children, then it would not be considered a viable alternative. every single government, with different approaches and laws, that has attempted legalization, has actually caused more problems then they started with. it's silly to think some imaginary government would ever get it right.

Theres an exception to your rule, ever heard about amsterdam?. Legalized prostitution and drugs and they havent had much trouble, sadly now they are thinking about making a law against it because most tourist that go there go for that reason and they are earning a bad reputation that makes them lose other possible torurists.

amsterdam had an increase in human trafficking (illegal sex slaves) and child prostitution after legalization. there is also more illegal prostitution in the netherlands. other crime has increased as well, and as you say, the sex tourism is a problem.

the only people who benefit are the sex workers who fit the criteria for legalized prostitution, and the people who purchase sex from them.

43 different counties of the netherlands tried to make prostitution illegal again because of the massive problems, but the federal government blocked their move as unconstitutional (not sure if that is the correct word). the government now makes 5% of their revenue pimping out the women, so they would like to keep the institution intact, regardless of any negative impact.

I support legalization. For the record, no country that's tried legalization has taken a comprehensive approach to it - one that ensures the prostitutes' health, safety, and financial interests are prioritized. Most, in fact, are anemic attempts at decriminalization, and so are doomed to fail.

I suspect that the poor design of these attempts are rooted in the idea that whether it's illegal, legal, decriminalized, or anywhere in between, the following moral judgment is always attached: prostitutes are filthy, degenerate whores and patrons are disgusting, low-lifes worthy of nothing but contempt. Any attempts at legalization and decriminalization have been designed to reinforce those antiquated moral concepts, rather than to support the prostitute's domain over his/her own body, or to show some measure of compassion for people who are unable or unwilling to attract sexual partners in the absence of financial compensation. Its tragic, really.

If prostitution were legalised, how many of the people who've posted on this thread would choose to work as prostitutes?

NB - your gender or sexuality is as irrelevant to this question as it is to many of those who use prostitutes.

I wouldn't, because I'm unable to separate sex and love - money would have no impact on my decision. However, I don't have a problem with people who are able to separate sex and love behaving in accordance with their own beliefs. If money is a part of their equation, I don't see any benefit in punishing them.

Yes, legalised BUT regulated (mandatory STD checks every few weeks, put on some sort of sex workers register, have some sort of paper they can give clients to show that they're "kosher").

If they catch an STD they become a public health risk. They have to be given legal liability too (how much will the john sue for if he gets warts on his genitals?). Maybe more women will be turned away from the industry if it's legalised because there will be too much damn paperwork and red tape

I wasnt aware of the problems they had with prostitution in netherlands, my comment was towards the drug analogy, if Im not mistaken netherlands has far less addiction issues than elsewhere because since its legal they explain most aspects of it from a young age and whoever decides to start doing them is aware of possible consequences. Where I live most guys my age are/have tried drugs and most of them are unaware of the issues that it can lead to(the other day I had to expend half an hour explaining to one of them that smoking some things can cause hallucinations and he wouldnt believe me for example).

The thing about human trafficking is that there is no way to stop it, nothing a government does is going to stop human traficking, however you may have a point because even though its inevitable they should try to mantain it as low as possible..

I have to confess I hadnt thought about those who dont fit the criteria for legalized prostitution and it must be pretty hard for those, however I think that those who dont meet the criteria have more problems than those who do in every country.

Can I ask where did you get the information about the 43 counties and so?

the information about the 43 municipalities (not counties - my mistake) in the netherlandsthat wanted to ban prostitution but were not permitted is found in a netherlands human trafficking review paper: (link)

if you would like to know any other sources, please let me know. i've done a stupid amount of interwebz research on this stuff. but my knowedge is also academic and personal. i learned about the political and feminist issues in women's studies coursework at university (the feminists are not united by any means, but the research points mainly in one single direction)...

...and i also learned from seeing the impact with my own eyes. i'm not going to hide my background in this issue anymore, even if it presents my bias. two friends, and 4 family members worked in the industry, including my grandmother, and my cousin was a sex worker who died of AIDS nearly 20 years ago. she also narrowly escaped going to the infamous "Pickton farm" where many prostitutes were slaughtered and fed to pigs. my father was a "john" or regular purchaser or sexual sevices.

so if people think i am speaking from an ivory tower, they can rest assured that i know the impact personally. i am certain from the experiences that if we can alleviate some of the desperate social conditions, we can eliminate a great deal of the necessity for women to work in the industry in the first place.

legal or not, prostitution changes most women's psychological makeup. for these women, the impact is extensive, pervasive and horrible. i sincerely doubt that the majority of people who support prostitution have ever really considered what it really means to sell the use of your body for sexual services.

even on this board we can see the importance of sexuality to many people, so it seems kind of obvious that the sex trade can badly damage a sex worker's own sexual and emotional life. many people accept as fact that the modeling industry, for example, is terrible for the well-being of the people who work in it, but society skims over the possibility that the sex industry in terrible for prostitutes.

anyway, back to the netherlands... here an interesting bit from the almight Wikipedia (link)

i prefer sweden's approach, which criminalizes the transaction for the users but not the workers. i agree quite strongly with the specific slant of the female politicians. it is acknowledged that the criminalization has not completely eliminated prostitution in sweden, but demand decreased significantly, and unlike the decriminalization model it has not increased the problems. sweden's option has resulted in less prostitution, less human trafficking, and less child prostitution.

if we are going to talk idealistically, sweden's approach is much closer to what i would call an ideal situation, but it would need clearer legislation and better policing. (link):


Edited for family privacy reasons.

The following study was published by in October, 2007 by Dr. Elaine Mossman (Crime and Justice Research Centre, Victoria University of Wellington) on behalf of the Ministry of Justice in New Zealand.

International Approaches to Decriminalising or Legalising Prostitution

Among other things, Dr. Mossman concludes the following:

Impacts of legislation

Assessing the impact of the legislative approaches was difficult on four fronts.

i. Little evaluative research – Very little research was located that was designed to
evaluate the impact of prostitution reforms.

ii. Variations in legal frameworks within approaches – Across legalised and criminalised
regimes, the specific legal framework varied greatly. This means that even within one
type of regime, the impacts would not expect to be the same.

iii. Validity of reports – There was often poor attention to identifying sources of
information, or methodologies used.

iv. Conflicting results – There were conflicting results about impacts, frequently
supporting different ideological views. In general, feminist and religious groups have
tended to see few positive effects of decriminalisation or legalisation. Those in health
organisations, human rights groups and sex worker collectives have generally done the
opposite.

While firm conclusions are hard to draw, there is some evidence emerging on four fronts:

i. Health, safety and working conditions are improved in decriminalised regimes (e.g.
New South Wales) and to some extent within legalised regimes (e.g. Victoria,
Queensland, Netherlands, and Nevada).

ii. The social exclusion of sex workers may have lessened somewhat in legalised and
decriminalised regimes. Sex workers in jurisdictions with the heaviest regulation appear
to suffer the greatest degree of stigma.

iii. Difficulties over the regulation of the industry are common. Overly restrictive systems
make it difficult for sex workers and brothel keepers to operate legally which can result in
two-tier legal and illegal operations (e.g. in Victoria, Queensland, and the Netherlands).
Problems are exacerbated where there is no legal differentiation between small owneroperated
brothels and larger commercial brothels.

iv. There are mixed reports of the impact on numbers of sex workers.


ADDITIONAL CONCLUSIONS FROM THE STUDY:

Conflicting results – There were conflicting results about impacts, frequently supporting different ideological views. In general, feminist and religious groups have tended to see few positive effects of decriminalisation or legalisation. Those in health organisations, human rights groups and sex worker collectives have generally done the opposite.

The study concludes that there haven't been enough studies of the impact of legalization and/or decriminalization to draw concrete conclusions. However it appears that the impacts are closely tied to how legalization and/or decriminalization is implemented. Most countries have not taken a comprehensive approach that includes requiring insurance companies to offer medical insurance to sex workers, requiring that customers be tested, require the use of condoms (female and/or male), etc. Unfortunately, it seems that most countries have floated a kind of grudging approach to legalization and/or decriminalization, and IMO, that's not what's needed to introduce real change into this industry.

I think we are again forgetting that legalizing might reasonably save money.