How many couples have met on this site? (IRL)

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No I do not have to accept that it happens. If people can't trust their partner not to jump into bed with all their opposite-sex friends, then why are they dating in the first place?
Possessiveness is not love.

I actually think the guy is the blame for the whole thing from the facts I've been presented with. The girl seems to have jealousy issues.



Not quite. He was still with his girlfriend when he made friends with me, and the phrases that he was using: "insanely in love with her" and "I love her more than I can describe" don't really suggest that there were any problems at the time.
He only started things with other people AFTER he broke up with her. Once she knew, she couldn't handle it, and did her best to break things up.
He said to me more than once, and I'm pretty sure he said the same thing to blue_bean, that he'd tried and tried to get his first GF to see that it was over, but she just wouldn't let go.



I was friends with him for months before he broke up with his first GF for the first time. During that time, he never overstepped the boundaries of friendship, and was always clear about only being interested in his girlfriend. Surely that, and the fact that during that time, he wasn't having trouble with her, suggests that the friendship was genuine?



The whole drama surrounding that is quite complicated and difficult to explain, and I don't know everything, but... I'll try. Sorry if it's confusing.
First: he starts dating his first GF.
Then: He becomes friends with me.
Months later: he breaks up with his first GF.
Some time later: he says he has romantic feelings for me. It doesn't really go anywhere because it gets overwhelming for him. We are never dating during this time or ever, even though we've both expressed wishes that it would happen. He keeps telling me that it's over between him and his first GF, but that she wouldn't let go. (This is part of what I'd like an explanation from him about; as during this time they kept getting back together and breaking up).
About a year after that, although AFAIK it began sooner: I find out that he is dating blue_bean. This follows a message from him in which he said that because I didn't mind who he talked to, he'd be with me if he could, but I think he was just having a bad day with jealousy from people, one of who had no right to be jealous, because, as he said "it's been over for a year, and I wish she'd see that", and was more venting than anything.
Very, very soon after that: his first GF messages me suggesting that I put blue_bean on ignore; I get a message from him saying that yes, he and blue_bean are dating (in which he was worried that I wouldn't want to be friends with him anymore: again, this suggests that the friendship was genuine), and a bunch of drama ensues, as well as some scary mindfuckery from his first GF.




AFTER he broke up with his first GF. NOT before. There was no "in love" before then. If he hadn't broken up with her, things would never have gone beyond platonic.
That's the thing. She WASN'T his girlfriend when he was starting things with other people; she had no right to jealousy.




Apology accepted.



Yeah, and he was trying to date ONE person. I admit that I didn't help by reacting badly (but I think it was somewhat justified after the months of telling me that he wanted to be with me), but I didn't actively try to break them up, unlike his first GF who just couldn't accept that it was over. She did, but she wasn't happy with that; she had to stop him from being friends with both blue_bean and I, even though by the end of it blue_bean didn't want to be with him anyway and I'd backed off out of respect for him.
I think that it was his first GF being unable to let go that caused most of the problems.

@Who_Am_I, I accept that this is a complicated situation. I just wanted to point out that nobody really has a "right" to jealousy. It's an emotion (not a very pretty one)....people either feel it, or they don't. I think most people would rather that jealousy was not a part of their lives....but it's really not about whether a person should or shouldn't feel jealousy - it's just something that occurs.


Clearly, it wasn't over between them - they're together now, correct? The point I think you're missing is that if this man had wanted it to be over between his first gf and himself, it would have been over. If you don't want someone in your life, you can get them out: change your phone numbers; de-friend them; make it clear you'll contact the police if they contact you again (and then follow through), etc. But he didn't do those things, which is a pretty strong indication that despite what he told you, he wasn't ready to end the relationship with her. It seems as though, now that all the dust has settled, his primary emotional connection is with her - and you and @blue_bean have paid a price for that. He hurt you - quite possibly unintentionally - but that doesn't mean he's blameless in all this. It takes two people to keep an emotional connection alive....he did his part.

Jealousy is just a feeling. It's a feeling based on fear and insecurity, and it's perfectly normal to feel depending on ones self-esteem (girls with low self-esteem are more likely to think other girls are better and more attractive than them and hence feel more threat from other girls), but acting on those feelings is another matter. IMO jealousy shouldn't be taboo in a relationship either. If someone is feeling jealousy, then by all means they should be able to talk about it with their partner, get to the bottom of why it's felt and come to an understanding of each other. Instead this GF of his chose to hide her real feelings of threat and resorted to underhanded manipulative tactics to get rid of the cause of the jealousy.
I'm ashamed to admit I was the queen of jealousy during this whole saga, did some stupid immature s**t, but I can tell you jealousy turned to life or death based paranoia after that weekend. Simple jealousy became genuine threat as I saw two girls publically declare their love for my new BF once they found out we were together, then proceed to use my BPD behavior in response in order to break us up. Little did I know back then that it was the ex GF puppeteering the other girl. After that first big blowup me and him had, she posted a happy +7 in the haven thread and started planning her trip to Australia.

When it comes to things like BF's with female friends I'm actually pretty easy-going, but I certainly wouldn't wish myself into another situation like that again. These days I tend to be irrationally cautious when I meet guys with ex's still on the scene (my recent stuff with that OKC guy being a good example). I should have turned him down when he romantically propositioned me, I knew she was still obsessed with him, I just didn't forsee that it would turn into all that. We actually had arguments about it before we got together but talked about getting together ("oh I'd love to be your partner one day" "errm, yeah ditto, but *points at ex gf" you got a little problem over there to deal with first". Cue argument )

He was very black and white when it came to relationships. His pattern of thought was that if the romantic love isn't there anymore, the platonic love and care for the person is still there, hence why he never entertained the notion of cutting off contact with her.

Mark198423 & I met here, met in real life, and are engaged. We are getting married in August & I'm moving to England....

(To answer previous questions, I have children from my ex-husband)

I understand if this is too personal, but what does your ex-husband have to say about you moving his kids to another country?

Briefly for WP (you are welcome to IM me for details ) He's been very cooperative about the move, as he chose not to be local when we separated. It doesn't change his circumstances.

Oh, okay.

nobody asked for my opinion (which NEVER, EVER stops me lol), but i find it sad that blue_bean and Who_Am_I (2 members i respect so much) have spoken of such a painful experience with that man yet still defend him. that other woman didn't really cause the pain, as that man would have known (you told him) about how hurtful she was being, yet he went along with what she said. if he had resisted her manipulations, then this whole conversation would have been moot. but he believed her.

yes, she sounds like a crazy b***h, but so what? he could have stood up to he and didn't. the two of you have bigger hearts than me, because after reading all of the above, he sounds like a flaky jerk of the greatest magnitude.

Oh....well..if I seemed to be defending him it wasn't my intent. The topic turned to GF's jealous of female friends and this was our presented case study. Lets just say for the record that, if I ever bumped into him in the shops in Brisbane I'd punch him in the throat before his brain even processes that it's me.

If he was to return to WP and try to re-befriend Who_Am_I, I would be the first one to call her out as she probably won't do the rightful thing (for her own health and sanity) of telling him to f**k off. He demonstrated to her for a whole 6 months that he did not give a s**t how all of this mentally affected her (that's why he stopped talking to me in the end, because I expressed my concerns about his careless approach to her wellbeing, in less than polite words). Shame on him for fooling her once, shame on her for being fooled twice...or however the saying goes.
Who_Am_I might be inclined to defend him a little because she never made the mistake of dating him. And despite his carelessness he was nice and friendly to her until the day he pissed off. The guy had the gift of promising all sorts of care and reassurance in order to make you feel special but not delivering on said promises when push came to shove (eg. turning a blind eye when I became suicidal).

brainfart. Sorry guys for questioning the situation, it's probably too complicated to tell a stranger who isn't involved about over the net.

I just hope you heal soon from what happened.

ok, sorry if i misunderstood, blue_bean. your stories broke my heart and i really felt angry at *whoever*.

I had known him for almost 2 years before the drama started. During that time, the only thing that wasn't absolutely wonderful was the worry caused by his suicide attempts. The fact that he acted thoughtlessly during the subsequent time doesn't cancel that out.
Besides, I don't think he set out to hurt anyone; as I said, he just didn't know how to deal with the situation. This doesn't excuse his behaviour: if you cause pain for those who you supposedly care about, you should stick around to face the consequences of your own actions: but it does put them into perspective.



He's easily confused socially, which leaves him open to manipulation, and for some reason it just doesn't occur to him that she could lie, even though she's been caught out more than once.
Blue_bean saw through her a lot earlier than me; it wasn't until he disappeared for the final time that I put a lot of things together.
Also, he's afraid of hurting her in any way.

[quote="blue_beanOh....well..if I seemed to be defending him it wasn't my intent. The topic turned to GF's jealous of female friends and this was our presented case study. Lets just say for the record that, if I ever bumped into him in the shops in Brisbane I'd punch him in the throat before his brain even processes that it's me. [/quote]

And despite my defence of him, I don't know whether I want to hug him or break his hose. Both seem equally tempting.



No; I've had since mid-November to think things over without the stress of not knowing whether he was around or not. I wouldn't exactly tell him to f**k off, but I wouldn't open up to him again for a long time, if ever; and I wouldn't invest so much emotionally in his friendship.




I don't think that being confused, overwhelmed and manipulated demonstrates a lack of care. A lack of sufficient care, perhaps; but he did come back over and over despite pressure from the other one.



I gave my reasons above.
And we came pretty damn close to dating; we were actually intimate once (just through PM), but it never lead to a relationship.
The feelings were just as intense, in any case.
The unpredictability hurt just as much as any nastiness would have; I don't cope with not knowing what to expect; and it led to a major bout of OCD for me; as well as being suicidal.

Now you know why blue_bean thinks she has BPD. Or maybe it's just emotional complex PTSD or something. I question whether it's possible to come through the other end of something like that and still be emotionally healthy. So it's either me that had BPD to begin with (lying there dormant waiting for the right emotional trigger), or that was indeed a complete mind f**k which would have affected anybody the same way. I still don't know the answer.

^this. how many hearts did he break? we only know of a few, but that was complex web he wove, and from the sounds of it i don't think anyone knew the full picture.

On the subject of whether or not he cared enough (no, he did not; otherwise he would have stuck around to deal with the fact that he'd hurt his friends) or at all: blue_bean said this to me a while back "He didn't think the friendships were genuine; all he saw was romantic intent".
If I'd had people who I'd thought were friends and that I now thought were essentially just trying to get into my pants, I'd be hurt and angry, and the care would disappear pretty fast. Doesn't the fact that he tried to stick around and that he kept coming back say something?

It isn't fair to only consider someone at their worst. He was a good friend for a long time, and the care was given, not just promised. It doesn't make sense to act as though his later thoughtlessness cancels it out.

(Just as an aside; if he happened to be reading this thread, he should be seriously asking himself WHY it is that everyone is condemning him, and why it is that the person who is still on his side and does still love him is using words like "idiot" and "coward", and he should be leaning less toward explanations like "everyone is mean and noone understands me" and more toward "I behaved in a hurtful and cowardly manner and the person taking my side somewhat is more forgiving than I probably deserve".)

He didn't come back to me. I thought he was taking that extended break from you too last year but I didn't know until later that he kept in contact with you thoughout it. It made me angry that he could leave people hurt and abandoned and forget they exist, then return a few months later and expect things to resume how they were. I thought he was taking advantage of our emotional dependance on him in that instant. Little did I know that he didn't leave all along. He never told me you and him kept in contact and I dunno why, I wouldn't have been mad that he didn't talk to me as well. I actually enjoyed the few months break from him.

As much as he said he'd understand if I didn't want to get close to him again, he did his best to try and draw me in again with phrases like "I missed you so much" "I always think of you", and of course reminding me of his lingering romantic feelings for me (talk about tossing me a length of bloody string). It might have been paranoia at the time but the hairs on the back of my neck stood up when he PM'ed me for the first time in months. I was packing for a QLD holiday I was going on the next day so I had no time to reply (had two weeks to mull over my possible reply but my inner emotional conflicts got the better of me when the time came). Within 5 minutes of his supposed return I saw you make some pained posts about controlling and trust and started to think he only came back to play headgames.

Yep, we know the reasons why he stopped caring for me in the end. But I like to think of it this way; even if I made the right choices, did the right things and was the most emotionally mature/stable person on earth, the same end would have been reached, and we would still be here in this thread speaking of our heartbreak. She still would have "won" in the end no matter what. That at least eases some of the regret for me.

Re: romantic intent. Well, we all know that she never happy being just friends with him when they were, which made her look like a hypocrite when she made the same remark about you.
For me I just took my obsession with him, and her obsession with him, and assumed that all other female friends must have been obsessed in the same (lol assumption correct). Romantic feelings are fine, but I think it takes some discipline to not let them get laced in your actions and behavior towards the feeling's subject. That is what me and him witnessed last year; actions taken to get a hurtful person away from him, but said actions seemed to be influenced by your own wants and desires as well.