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hyperlexian
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25 Feb 2012, 7:21 pm

someone asked who sell the women. some sell themselves, some are sold by family, some are kidnapped


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Mithos
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25 Feb 2012, 7:39 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
someone asked who sell the women. some sell themselves, some are sold by family, some are kidnapped
That's really messed..


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Tequila
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25 Feb 2012, 7:48 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
someone asked who sell the women. some sell themselves, some are sold by family, some are kidnapped


This should never be illegal if everyone is fully on-board at any stage. What people do with their own bodies is none of anyone else's business.

The other two are of course abhorrent.



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25 Feb 2012, 8:04 pm

Tequila wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
someone asked who sell the women. some sell themselves, some are sold by family, some are kidnapped


This should never be illegal if everyone is fully on-board at any stage. What people do with their own bodies is none of anyone else's business..


Its make on difference its still illegal, bonded labour (debt bondage) is a form of slavery.
Take a look at the UN 1956 Supplementary Convention on the Abolition of Slavery to see for yourself.


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hyperlexian
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25 Feb 2012, 8:07 pm

Tequila wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
someone asked who sell the women. some sell themselves, some are sold by family, some are kidnapped


This should never be illegal if everyone is fully on-board at any stage. What people do with their own bodies is none of anyone else's business.

The other two are of course abhorrent.

it's difficult to know which are which. and "consent" is messy in cases like this. when someone is legally coerced they are still technically consenting.

EDIT: also, with the bolded part, that is your opinion, not necessarily a right.


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Tequila
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25 Feb 2012, 8:08 pm

Chipshorter wrote:
Its make on difference its still illegal, bonded labour (debt bondage) is a form of slavery.


I'm not referring to cases like that. Consent in those cases is doubtful. I still think that it's probably unwise to get involved with mail-order brides anyway, for various reasons.



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25 Feb 2012, 8:42 pm

leaving the big issue of human trafficing aside, isn't the very practice of mail order brides somewhat demeaning? The male Western partner has nearly all the power. A lot of "husbands" choose the mail order bride route because they think all Western women are "contaminated" by feminism and want someone submissive. I think those men are scary myself. I can sympathize with true "lonely hearts," but the power imbalance between partners gives me pause. I'm reluctant to judge all mail order marriages, but men looking for "submissives" is a little creepy.



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25 Feb 2012, 8:49 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
blahblah123, you are incorrect. quite often the female does not have a choice. international agencies are aware of this fact but struggle to sort out which are entering into it willingly. and anyway even if she has a choice she is still being bought and sold.

EDIT: to clarify, when a person buys a prostitute... the hooker may have consented to the act in some cases, but that doesn't mean that her services were not purchased. her sexual services were bought and sold.

with mail order brides, the difference is that the human is purchased wholesale. yes, the human can be returned and the human can leave, but it doesn't make it any less of a business transaction where a person was bought & sold.


You're paying the agency to find you a wife, not to "buy" her. Just like your paying a dating site (like eHarmony) to find you a partner.

And I'm just curious, if a rich american man marries a poor american women, is he "buying" her? According to you, he is because she can't leave - she relies on him for food, shelter, etc.

edit:
@MagicToeNail: I can see how it can be seen as demeaning, and I'm sure it attracts many creeps. But I think the good way to weed them out is to deny anyone with a significant criminal record. And also, some people are just lonely and can't find anyone else. It's not all about finding someone submissive.



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25 Feb 2012, 9:01 pm

Obviously there is danger in it, some of the guys could be sadistic, violent etc. Some of the women could be con artists...
But the world isn't fair, life has risk, positivity exists in it as well. Many of these women are escaping bad circumstance, and have just as good a chance being set up with a violent man in their own country, those are the cards she was dealt in life.. and that's just the reality of it.



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25 Feb 2012, 9:13 pm

Subotai wrote:
Many of these women are escaping bad circumstance, and have just as good a chance being set up with a violent man in their own country, those are the cards she was dealt in life.. and that's just the reality of it.


Indeed. Perhaps some of the radical feminists so against it would like to meet someone who found their partner through these websites and are extremely happily married? Perhaps they would rather consign women like that to their miserable lives they left behind because apparently it's "exploitative" or some other guff.



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25 Feb 2012, 9:22 pm

blahblah123 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
blahblah123, you are incorrect. quite often the female does not have a choice. international agencies are aware of this fact but struggle to sort out which are entering into it willingly. and anyway even if she has a choice she is still being bought and sold.

EDIT: to clarify, when a person buys a prostitute... the hooker may have consented to the act in some cases, but that doesn't mean that her services were not purchased. her sexual services were bought and sold.

with mail order brides, the difference is that the human is purchased wholesale. yes, the human can be returned and the human can leave, but it doesn't make it any less of a business transaction where a person was bought & sold.


You're paying the agency to find you a wife, not to "buy" her. Just like your paying a dating site (like eHarmony) to find you a partner.

And I'm just curious, if a rich american man marries a poor american women, is he "buying" her? According to you, he is because she can't leave - she relies on him for food, shelter, etc.

edit:
@MagicToeNail: I can see how it can be seen as demeaning, and I'm sure it attracts many creeps. But I think the good way to weed them out is to deny anyone with a significant criminal record. And also, some people are just lonely and can't find anyone else. It's not all about finding someone submissive.


If two Americans marry, they both have citizenship, speak the same language (usually) and have equal claims to the children and property (if a pre nup was not signed). A foreigner won't have citizenship for at least a few years, and might have language difficulties that will put her in a severe disadvantage with the American legal system if she ever wanted to get divorced, is being abused by the spouse etc...

blahblah123, yes, I realize that there are some true lonely hearts, and some men who simply like exotic women, submissive or not. That's why I can't say every single mail order marriage is a bad thing. The odds are stacked against them though, particularly if one partner is ASD and another is NT. To deal with that in top of all the cultural differences must be very hard indeed.



hyperlexian
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25 Feb 2012, 9:44 pm

Tequila wrote:
Subotai wrote:
Many of these women are escaping bad circumstance, and have just as good a chance being set up with a violent man in their own country, those are the cards she was dealt in life.. and that's just the reality of it.


Indeed. Perhaps some of the radical feminists so against it would like to meet someone who found their partner through these websites and are extremely happily married? Perhaps they would rather consign women like that to their miserable lives they left behind because apparently it's "exploitative" or some other guff.

why are you assuming it is radical feminists against it?


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hyperlexian
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25 Feb 2012, 10:15 pm

blahblah123 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
blahblah123, you are incorrect. quite often the female does not have a choice. international agencies are aware of this fact but struggle to sort out which are entering into it willingly. and anyway even if she has a choice she is still being bought and sold.

EDIT: to clarify, when a person buys a prostitute... the hooker may have consented to the act in some cases, but that doesn't mean that her services were not purchased. her sexual services were bought and sold.

with mail order brides, the difference is that the human is purchased wholesale. yes, the human can be returned and the human can leave, but it doesn't make it any less of a business transaction where a person was bought & sold.


You're paying the agency to find you a wife, not to "buy" her. Just like your paying a dating site (like eHarmony) to find you a partner.

And I'm just curious, if a rich american man marries a poor american women, is he "buying" her? According to you, he is because she can't leave - she relies on him for food, shelter, etc.

the American man wouldn't be buying the poor woman as he is not actually paying for her.

a person is not just paying the agency to find a wife, and it's not a 2-sided matchmaker service. men are selecting partners from a catalogue like they could buy a new dishwasher.

the main reason why the industry flourishes is because immigration to western countries is so difficult. perhaps if that problem was corrected, women in those countries would not find it necessary to come here that way.

some of the host countries do not support the exportation of its women - it is actually illegal in the Phillippines yet most companies get around that by posting their business headquarters elsewhere.


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25 Feb 2012, 10:40 pm

I don't think there is such a thing as mail-order brides or husbands in the real / traditional sense of the word. Nowadays, the term is merely used as a derogatory label for international marriage agencies.

Women who use the services of these agencies usually live in fairly well developed countries, such as Eastern European nations. They are not desperate; they take their time to get to know potential spouses online, and usually arrange a meeting in their home country if there is a mutual attraction. And they are just as picky as anybody else. Nobody will leave their country, friends and family unless their potential future spouse is a) reasonably attractive, and b) can provide them with a certain level of security, including financial security. The OP might want to consider that.

One should also consider that cultural and language differences can put quite a strain on a relationship. And of course there is the danger of being ripped off by people (sometimes men who pose as women) who talk desperate men into wiring them money for plane tickets or the surgery of a relative or whatever. They know exactly how to play on the heartstrings of lonely men, and very few (if any) marriage / dating agencies manage to screen out frauds and scammers.

I would advise to use a regular online dating service and focus on people in your own area, who are more likely to be compatible with you in terms of language, culture and shared interests. If you don't stand a chance in your local / national dating environment, it is unlikely that a woman in another country will have you. That might sound harsh, but that's a reality. People all over the globe are aware of their options and won't settle for less. Anyway, whatever you do, keep in mind that if something looks too good to be true, you're probably dealing with a fraud.



Last edited by CrazyCatLord on 25 Feb 2012, 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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25 Feb 2012, 10:42 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Women who use the services of these agencies usually live in fairly well developed countries, such as Eastern European nations.


Indeed. Most of these sorts of countries aren't necessarily places I'd feel comfortable in but they aren't war zones.



hyperlexian
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25 Feb 2012, 10:43 pm

here is an interesting fact:

Quote:
Another important feature of the mail-order bride business is its relationship and inseparability from the sex tourism business. While proponents of bride trafficking claim that pornography and sex tourism are completely unrelated businesses, the marketing of complete services on the mail-order bride web sites tell a different story. Most companies that offer mail-order bride services also offer sex tours of third world countries (Plasencia). The Internet enables interconnectivity between the exploitation of minors internationally, positioning women and children both as potential brides and also as escorts while men tour third world countries buying sex whether the intention is to purchase a permanent woman or not.


http://pi.library.yorku.ca/ojs/index.ph ... /6430/5618

Quote:
Traffickers rely on the vulnerable, and taking a woman out of her community, transporting her from her country, and making her dependent on a foreign man in a foreign land makes her ripe for exploitation. Many women in less developed countries long for a move to a more developed country where life is thought to be easier. One way ‘‘out’’ for women in economically depressed communities is to marry citizens of more developed countries. And where governments offer no civil protections, this option leaves women with little information about their prospective marriage matches and whether they have been married before, have criminal records, etc.

Traffickers are documented to have used offers of marriage to recruit women for the sex trade and for forced labor. From rural villages in Asia to slums in major South American cities, women are deceived into leaving their homes and traveling across international borders in the hopes of marrying men who can provide them better lives. This vulnerability of disadvantaged women is well known to traffickers.

Some human traffickers recruit victims through direct offers of marriages, negotiating directly with the woman or her family for a promise of marriage, after which she is delivered to a brothel or a sweatshop by the ‘‘husband,’’ who is rewarded with a cash payment from the brothel keeper or sweatshop manager for the delivery of his slave.

...

While some matchmaking organizations take a personal approach to their business, the vast majority of mail order bride matches now happen through the mediation of Internet-based matchmaking organizations where connections occur in bulk, catalogs contain hundreds or thousands of profiles of available brides, and where matchmakers rarely have personal clients.

Here is an interesting point. With the spread of the Internet, anyone with a Web connection can now run a matchmaking business. The industry has ballooned greatly in recent years and hasbecome very commercial. Many on-line mail order bride Web sites have taken a pure merchandising approach to their matchmaking, one with which any of us who go onto a catalog, a book site are familiar with. Just as we find buttons that say ‘‘browse,’’ ‘‘select,’’ ‘‘proceed to checkout,’’ these same setups are visible on matchmaking organizations.

In the written testimony provided to the committee, as well on the table, we have provided an illustration of what one such Web site, Alena Russian Bride Marriage Agency, looks like. You have a shopping cart. Your order list. An instruction to ‘‘preview your order list with photos.’’ Another icon tells you to ‘‘proceed to checkout.’’

Underneath this are the words, ‘‘Search our catalog to find your future Russian wife. 100 percent satisfaction guaranty or money back. No questions.’’ With the reduction of women to such a commodity very little different from a sweater, a sweatshirt, or a car part that I would buy, it is no wonder that the attitude that continues in a relationship continues to be one of ownership.

...

So it is not surprising that the industry of marriage should become a vehicle for exploitation. Nor is it surprising that the Internet, because of its immediacy, promises of anonymity and lack of accountability, should become the vehicle of choice for this exploitation to take place.

...

Several Sites advertise themselves as warehouses.

...

As the mail-order bride industry is first and foremost a business, the customer’s satisfaction is logically the central concern. Because the paying clients are male, the bride is reduced to the condition of commodity. Protective mechanisms exist to safeguard the potential husbands, but not the potential brides. The mail-order brides face conditions of vulnerability prior to marriage with their potential grooms, during the matchmaking process, and after the marriage takes place.

...

In countries where recruitment of women by marriage agencies is popular, the general public does not understand the risk of signing up with these agencies. A NGO worker in St. Petersburg said that her mother was urging her to sign up. She said her mother said, ‘‘Why waste your time with that work. Why not correspond with a Western man and find a better life?’’ She said she knew of cases in which women are afraid to go to the agencies alone, so mothers accompany their daughters to sign them up.

...

There is an abundance of evidence that marriage agencies are involved in activities that result in the sexual exploitation of women and children.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewc ... mtraffdata


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