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Rape, Victim-Blaming, and... random stuff about religion

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JanuaryMan
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26 Jun 2012, 11:26 am

Tequila wrote:
JanuaryMan wrote:
It would be safe to assume that, but I was recently going out with an AS girl and she really didn't understand the social boundaries about certain chants and things to say during football matches at pubs nor did she care.


There's a big, big difference between social boundaries and actively putting your personal safety at risk. In the Bogside for instance, there are security and bomb alerts every week, there have been riots in recent years, people are still being shot there.

JanuaryMan wrote:
She painted her nails German for an England game and the like.


See, I would find that quite amusing. Probably not so much if she painted them in the colours of Argentina though.


I'm aware, I've been to Londonderry. I also lived in N.I for a while. I visit every year. Am familiar with things like this.
Well, this girl was basically winding up people in the pub by constantly chanting stupid things, being racist to the other team, and the like. It was putting MY safety in jeopardy. She has also behaved this way in other places and although it's not her fault she was risking putting people's safety at risk.



edgewaters
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26 Jun 2012, 11:30 am

Tequila wrote:
TM wrote:
What you are doing is worse than what most anti-women people do, because you are implicitly saying that women are unable to take responsibility for their own actions.


Exactly. It's like leaving a top-of-the-range Mercedes SL unlocked with the keys in the ignition and a full tank of petrol, filled with state of the art electronics, in a rough inner-city area and expecting it not to get stolen. It wouldn't be your fault that it was stolen - that would be 100% the responsibility of the thief. However, you would share a large portion of the blame for being so damn stupid in leaving a car like that there in the first place.

It's the same if a scantily-clad attractive young blonde woman, completely unarmed and without any protection, walked through a particularly grotty, unlit and unsurveilled park in a dangerous majority-Muslim neighbourhood at 1am in the morning. If she was attacked or violently raped, the assault would not in any way be her fault. However, she would show an astonishing lack of common sense in choosing to do something so clearly risky in the first place as it would be like a red rag to a bull for those vermin.

It's all a matter of assessing risks. You can't live your life without taking risks, that's just stupid and would be a horrible way to life but you can avoid taking unnecessary, pointless and dangerous risks. People do all the time.


All these analogies have a glaring fault - they're all anomalous situations showing poor judgement, and in that sense, they don't match the reality of the situation.

Women dressing up is neither anomalous nor does it show poor judgement. It is every day, ordinary, commonplace - a routine aspect of life that you see every day, walking down the street. It is not like wearing some big sign that says "rape me".

Now if you want to say a women in a swimsuit walking around the worst part of town alone at 4 am, ok, now you've got a situation that is anomalous and shows poor judgement. But in isolation - wearing a swimsuit is neither anomalous nor showing of poor judgement. And the main risk factor in that situation isn't the swimsuit anyway, its the location and hour - she could be wearing a used garbage bag and still be attacked.



Uprising
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26 Jun 2012, 11:31 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:
deltafunction wrote:
Do you even know anyone who has been raped for dressing inappropriately?


Probably. I live in an area with plenty of people who have indicated that they find women without headscarves to be fair game. Muslims, they're called. They're a minority in terms of population, but a majority in terms of problems and cultural idiocy.

Generalize much? I've personally worked with 2 moroccan women and they both were the warmest people I've ever met in my country.

But yeah, you have these special cliques in them that love to cause civil war, just like with the gypsies.



Tequila
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26 Jun 2012, 11:34 am

JanuaryMan wrote:
I'm aware, I've been to Londonderry. I also lived in N.I for a while. I visit every year. Am familiar with things like this.


Sorry, mate. I thought you were a septic. If you understand what I was getting at in an NI context, you might understand the similarities I'm trying to draw here - i.e. the idea of "goading" people.

JanuaryMan wrote:
Well, this girl was basically winding up people in the pub by constantly chanting stupid things, being racist to the other team, and the like.


Was she German? Did she not understand what might happen if she winds other people up in busy pub where she perhaps isn't well known, where drink is involved and where she is massively outnumbered, possibly by people looking for an excuse for a scrap? If they see her as a threat, or they feel sufficiently irritated by her, that they might well respond in kind, possibly physically?

JanuaryMan wrote:
It was putting MY safety in jeopardy.


I suspect you were looking for the nearest exit. I bet it wasn't a nice position to be in.

JanuaryMan wrote:
She has also behaved this way in other places and although it's not her fault


That's the problem - it is her fault. Does she understand the possible repercussions of her actions?



Tequila
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26 Jun 2012, 11:39 am

edgewaters wrote:
Women dressing up is neither anomalous nor does it show poor judgement. It is every day, ordinary, commonplace - a routine aspect of life that you see every day, walking down the street. It is not like wearing some big sign that says "rape me".


You're not taking in the whole situation. A woman walking around scantily clad in a town centre in the height of summer or on the beach, for example, is commonplace and perfectly understandable. Walking around like that alone at 1am in a dimly-lit alleyway in one of the dirtiest and roughest parts of a large city isn't. Most people would think that she was crazy doing the latter, but blameless doing the former.



JanuaryMan
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26 Jun 2012, 11:45 am

Tequila wrote:
Was she German? Did she not understand what might happen if she winds other people up in busy pub where she perhaps isn't well known, where drink is involved and where she is massively outnumbered, possibly by people looking for an excuse for a scrap? If they see her as a threat, or they feel sufficiently irritated by her, that they might well respond in kind, possibly physically?
...

That's the problem - it is her fault. Does she understand the possible repercussions of her actions?


This is what I've been trying to tell you in the same post you just quoted, she doesn't understand ANY of that stuff. Her AS is severe and bordering autism. She doesn't register anything that is critical of her actions. She's very much English. We can't just assume everyone can make good judgement calls, or are emotionally / socially equipped to do so. Not every adult can be supervised 24/7, nor should they have to be, and sometimes people do land in situations through social naivety and not knowing any better. We can't use our own experiences as the rule of thumb for everyone else. This happens all the time on WP and it doesn't really help when giving advice or making judgement calls ourself.

And yes, I was cringing so much my body was contorting in ways most uncomfortable!



Tequila
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26 Jun 2012, 11:49 am

JanuaryMan wrote:
Not every adult can be supervised 24/7, nor should they have to be, and sometimes people do land in situations through social naivety and not knowing any better. We can't use our own experiences as the rule of thumb for everyone else.


True, many, many situations are not universal and depend heavily on the people and the context. A few though, are not really dependent on context though are they? I'm thinking of situations where saying/doing certain things will be seen as a wind-up or where someone makes themselves lambs to the slaughter. Better intuition is the only way you can understand?

Would she not understand what was happening until she wondered why people were punching her in the face?



JanuaryMan
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26 Jun 2012, 11:52 am

Tequila wrote:
JanuaryMan wrote:
Not every adult can be supervised 24/7, nor should they have to be, and sometimes people do land in situations through social naivety and not knowing any better. We can't use our own experiences as the rule of thumb for everyone else.


True, many, many situations are not universal and depend heavily on the people and the context. A few though, are not really dependent on context though are they? I'm thinking of situations where saying/doing certain things will be seen as a wind-up or where someone makes themselves lambs to the slaughter. Better intuition is the only way you can understand?

Would she not understand what was happening until she wondered why people were punching her in the face?

Only why people are punching them in the face. But I am just using this person as an example anyway.



Tequila
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26 Jun 2012, 11:53 am

JanuaryMan wrote:
Only why people are punching them in the face. But I am just using this person as an example anyway.


Fair enough. Would it have been possible to try and get the silly cow to stop being so provocative?



edgewaters
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26 Jun 2012, 11:56 am

Tequila wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Women dressing up is neither anomalous nor does it show poor judgement. It is every day, ordinary, commonplace - a routine aspect of life that you see every day, walking down the street. It is not like wearing some big sign that says "rape me".


You're not taking in the whole situation. A woman walking around scantily clad in a town centre in the height of summer or on the beach, for example, is commonplace and perfectly understandable. Walking around like that alone at 1am in a dimly-lit alleyway in one of the dirtiest and roughest parts of a large city isn't. Most people would think that she was crazy doing the latter, but blameless doing the former.


Name anything you want, from wearing a certain flag to the colour of your shoelaces or hair, and there are contextual situations where it will be a security risk. We can imagine anything you want to be a risk this way.

But in isolation, that is, in and of themselves, neither the colour of one's hair nor revealing clothing is an abnormal risk. We can come up with contexts where literally anything would be ill-advised. This doesn't mean that every possible thing shows an inherent lack of judgement!

Walking outside your door is a security risk. So is staying inside.



Last edited by edgewaters on 26 Jun 2012, 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

JanuaryMan
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26 Jun 2012, 11:56 am

In short, no. But, that's how some people are. And it's pretty evident they aren't alone. Many come to Love and Dating forum for advice, and snap the moment they actually get any. There are a lot of people out there that just can't make these calls for themselves, or cannot apply what we feel is common sense, to a situation that requires it, for whatever reason - be it inability to absorb certain thought processes, interact certain ways with others, or simply lack of social understanding.



Tequila
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26 Jun 2012, 11:58 am

edgewaters wrote:
We can imagine anything you want to be a risk this way.


Exactly. Wearing a Union Jack at a Diamond Jubilee celebration in an English country village - no problem/very small risk.
Wearing the same flag in Argentina during a boisterous Malvinas demonstration - ill-advised/much, much bigger risk.

It's all a matter of risk, and understanding and accepting the risks.



DogsWithoutHorses
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26 Jun 2012, 12:27 pm

Uprising wrote:
HisDivineMajesty wrote:
deltafunction wrote:
Do you even know anyone who has been raped for dressing inappropriately?


Probably. I live in an area with plenty of people who have indicated that they find women without headscarves to be fair game. Muslims, they're called. They're a minority in terms of population, but a majority in terms of problems and cultural idiocy.

Generalize much? I've personally worked with 2 moroccan women and they both were the warmest people I've ever met in my country.

But yeah, you have these special cliques in them that love to cause civil war, just like with the gypsies.


he's got real racist and white nationalist streaks to him so yeah...there are going to be generalizations in his rhetoric.

All of this is basically desperate scrabbling to shift some blame from the rapist onto the victim and to shame women for being assaulted. It's ignorance and hate gussied up with faux rationality and flawed pragmaticism.


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26 Jun 2012, 1:46 pm

How did this thread get derailed into yet another COMPLETELY STUPID "discussion" about rape?

Opinions are like armpits... everyone has 'em but some certainly stink more than others!



Tequila
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26 Jun 2012, 1:49 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
All of this is basically desperate scrabbling to shift some blame from the rapist onto the victim and to shame women for being assaulted.


White nationalist and racist? Who's that? I can't see any of his rhetoric that is that? Either substantiate those slurs with evidence or withdraw them please.

It's not saying that, what it is saying is that people must take some responsibility for their own actions. It is saying that we don't live in a perfect world and, therefore, people must take sensible (not paranoid, sensible) precautions to try to minimise the risk of other people harming us in certain situations. Not everyone is peaceful, respectful and placid and therefore we must take pragmatic steps to try to minimise the risk of becoming their victim.



edgewaters
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26 Jun 2012, 2:03 pm

Tequila wrote:
Not everyone is peaceful, respectful and placid and therefore we must take pragmatic steps to try to minimise the risk of becoming their victim.


True, but one of those steps is to exert social pressure against those individuals, shine the light on them, and place responsibility and liability squarely where it belongs; not simply throw our hands up and be accepting of the situation.