How to deal with unwanted attention?

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ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 7:18 pm

mds_02 wrote:

no. I'm imposing society as a whole's definition of normal. Which, being basically an average of what the people in that society consider normal, is the only version of "normal" that is of any use when determining how to deal with a stranger. Believe me, it's far from the system I would prefer.

No, you're taking your own personal opinion, amid different ones, in a discussion about people with different ones,
and concluding it "society",
making subtle appeals to moral relativism in so doing,
and proclaiming those people and anyone who disagrees "@ssholes".
I'd expect more on a support site for people with considerable experiential and perceptional differences.

mds_02 wrote:

Nor do I. But I see a difference between venting at no one in particular and hurtful statements directed at specific individuals and delivered in person.

...based on those individuals' actions, as opposed to irrational mass-generalizations based on a laughable sample size.

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BlueMax
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12 Oct 2012, 7:30 pm

mds_02 wrote:

However, out in real life, the vast vast majority of people would take being considered attractive as a compliment. And the vast vast majority would be upset to learn that someone considers them ugly.

Which means that, if a random person were to compliment another random person's looks, it is safe to assume that they are doing so because they wish to make the other person feel good.

It also means that, if a random person tells another random person that they are ugly, it is safe to assume that they are doing so because they wish to make the other person feel bad. I've got no problem with saying that those who purposefully cause negative emotions in undeserving others are as*holes.

One may not be more or less "objectifying" than the other, but that does not mean that one is not worse than the other. Intent matters.

Again, agreed. Think of it another way... would you be offended if someone walked up to you and gave you some money or similar nice gift along with a smile? (Note, that's a gift, not bribe or payment for something he wants.)
And how would you feel if someone walked up, frowned, then hit you and/or took something away from you and walked away.

The words and actions decribed here are not very different from that. Is someone approaching you trying to be friendly - or are they trying to be a sleazy horndog?
REACT ACCORDINGLY, but give the benefit of the doubt by using a non-hostile response first.

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12 Oct 2012, 7:41 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

believe me when I tell you that I most certainly am not equating my views with that of society. My beliefs regarding what our culture considers normal or abnormal come from years of careful observation, and a metric shedload of trial and error trying to get it right. It's far from what would suit me, but it's the way things are and if one wishes to achieve ones goals in life then they'd best learn how to deal with it.

As for moral relativism, I don't buy into that crap. You're the one making appeals to it, talking about how certain types of negative behavior are acceptable from certain groups based on their past experiences.

Quote:

...based on those individuals' actions, as opposed to irrational mass-generalizations based on a laughable sample size.

So, men make generalizations based on a small sample size, and that's bad. Women commit negative actions which themselves come from generalizations (being as we're talking about strangers approaching them, they cannot know the person and thus are generalizing when they decide that this person deserves that treatment) that were formed based on an equally small sample size, and that's okay.

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ayla
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12 Oct 2012, 7:46 pm

I think being able to approach strangers is really brave, and I really wish I could.
On the other hand I think guys should not take it personally if a girl tells them to f**k off, even if they think they have been polite.
I mean, you don't know this girl, you have no idea what her day has been like, maybe her dog just died, and talking to strangers is the last thing she wants to do.

Maybe next time they could try reading her body language, does she look approachable? if so, go ahead. does she look sad? angry? better leave her alone.

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mds_02
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12 Oct 2012, 7:50 pm

BlueMax wrote:

Is someone approaching you trying to be friendly - or are they trying to be a sleazy horndog?
REACT ACCORDINGLY, but give the benefit of the doubt by using a non-hostile response first.

Yes, exactly.

Guy comes up and says "Hey! You should totally touch my penis!" then go ahead and smack him.

Guy comes up and says "Hey! Can I buy you a drink?" then a "No, thank you" should be enough. Followed by a stern "not interested" if he persists, then go ahead and smack him if that doesn't work.

ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 7:54 pm

Bluemax wrote:

However, out in real life, the vast vast majority of people would take being considered attractive as a compliment.

That doesn't mean the vast majority of people want to be appraised aloud by strangers when they're out minding their own business.
Even if it did, why are we appealing to the "majority", again?

Bluemax wrote:

And the vast vast majority would be upset to learn that someone considers them ugly.

Then maybe they shouldn't initiate the ratings game with people they don't know?
Why are we appealing to the "majority", again?

Bluemax wrote:

Which means that, if a random person were to compliment another random person's looks, it is safe to assume that they are doing so because they wish to make the other person feel good.

Wait, I thought it was because we wanted a date or sex...which is it?
All the men hitting on pretty girls are just do-gooders, now?

Bluemax wrote:

It also means that, if a random person tells another random person that they are ugly, it is safe to assume that they are doing so because they wish to make the other person feel bad. I've got no problem with saying that those who purposefully cause negative emotions in undeserving others are as*holes.

Right, because you take your own personal definition of "undeserving", and judge people accordingly.
Circular logic is circular.

Bluemax wrote:

One may not be more or less "objectifying" than the other, but that does not mean that one is not worse than the other. Intent matters.

That was essentially the major legal argument for years against adopting strong sexual harassment policies into the workplace,
and wide-eyed pretended obliviousness on the part of harassers.

Bluemax wrote:

I would find both bizarre, and act accordingly.

Bluemax wrote:

The words and actions decribed here are not very different from that. Is someone approaching you trying to be friendly - or are they trying to be a sleazy horndog?
REACT ACCORDINGLY, but give the benefit of the doubt by using a non-hostile response first.

Pretty sure freaked-out/disgusted people tend to react first and then think second by definition.
As I said, there's no right to not get your feelings hurt in a social interaction, especially one you initiated, unsolicited.
Although, even if we ran with your premise that intent matters, I'm pretty sure the intent we're talking about in this thread is either getting sex or at least getting a date- the INTENT of the interaction is to GET SOMETHING.

DogsWithoutHorses
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12 Oct 2012, 8:00 pm

mds_02 wrote:

BlueMax wrote:

Is someone approaching you trying to be friendly - or are they trying to be a sleazy horndog?
REACT ACCORDINGLY, but give the benefit of the doubt by using a non-hostile response first.

I agree with this.
The only issue is "touch my penis" guy allwaaays claims he's "I just want to buy you a drink/be nice/be friendly" guy.
Dude grinding on you on the bus always says it's accident. Dude on the sex offender registry for public masturbation always claims it was just public urination. The guy taking pictures of your ass is always just doing some "photography". We're always over sensitive shrews who apparently deserve misogyny for being meanies.

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mds_02
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12 Oct 2012, 8:02 pm

ayla wrote:

I mean, you don't know this girl, you have no idea what her day has been like, maybe her dog just died, and talking to strangers is the last thing she wants to do.

At the same time, she has no idea what's going on with him either. Maybe a polite "no thanks" would have done the trick, and the "f**k off" only serves to exacerbate his already low self-esteem, contributing to his downward spiral of loneliness and self-loathing.

Having people react to you like that can really f**k with your head.

I dunno. I really don't understand this. All I'm trying to say here is that maybe it's a good thing to be nice (or at least polite) to people until they give you a reason to act otherwise. And conversely, being cruel to them because *gasp, shudder* they thought you were pretty and tried to talk to you makes you kind of a dick.

Kjas
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12 Oct 2012, 8:04 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

mds_02 wrote:

BlueMax wrote:

Is someone approaching you trying to be friendly - or are they trying to be a sleazy horndog?
REACT ACCORDINGLY, but give the benefit of the doubt by using a non-hostile response first.

And this is the essential problem.

Because they say the same things, a polite refusal the first time (which I agree is always the best idea) - is often ignored completely by the types DWH is talking about.
Which I understand is why you are advocating to take it to the next level after that, mds_02, which I agree with.

But in this case the OP is feeling extremely vulnerable due to recent events with extremely good reason- and that needs to be taken into account and I have no seen anyone of this thread doing that yet, taking her recent personal experiences into account.

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Last edited by Kjas on 12 Oct 2012, 8:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 8:11 pm

mds_02 wrote:

Ah, so your personal opinions are "society" and mine make me an "@sshole" cause you consider yourself more informed and Declare it So.

The problem with that argument is that I can essentially say "Me too, ME TOO!! !"
and I've refuted your whole damned argument.

mds_02 wrote:

As for moral relativism, I don't buy into that crap. You're the one making appeals to it, talking about how certain types of negative behavior are acceptable from certain groups based on their past experiences.

In other words, you have no freaking idea what Moral Relativism is, do you? :lol:

Hint: implying it's wrong to act as does a "certain group based on their past experiences"
(ya know, because it's not the LARGER group, based on the same thing) means you're still appealing to it.

Quote:

...based on those individuals' actions, as opposed to irrational mass-generalizations based on a laughable sample size.

mds_02 wrote:

So, men make generalizations based on a small sample size, and that's bad.

I would argue purging sexist crap online is a negative action.

mds_02 wrote:

Women commit negative actions which themselves come from generalizations

Nah, a random person approaching and soliciting your attention just as dozens before did,
thereby increasing the irritation and therefore response to each identical successor doesn't involve a"generalization" of any kind.

mds_02 wrote:

(being as we're talking about strangers approaching them, they cannot know the person and thus are generalizing when they decide that this person deserves that treatment) that were formed based on an equally small sample size, and that's okay.

Women studying at school, reading, shopping in the supermarket, etc AREN'T THERE TO GET TO KNOW YOU, AND AREN'T OBLIGATED TO. They're there to study, read, shop, etc.
It involves no conclusion, negative or positive, about an entire sex of people.
Mmmkay?
The same way some people would swat a fly before they'd beg it to go away.
It involves a basic response to someone being annoying/irritating/creepy.

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 12 Oct 2012, 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mds_02
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12 Oct 2012, 8:13 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

But what about the genuinely friendly guy, who really did just wanna buy you a drink? Or the guy who really did bump into you on accident? Or the dude who really was just peeing?

I'm just saying, those guys are a lot more common than the as*holes. But we're always oversexed douches, just waiting for a chance to treat a woman like a collection of orifices (that knows how to wash our socks!).

ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 8:17 pm

mds_02 wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

But what about the genuinely friendly guy, who really did just wanna buy you a drink? Or the guy who really did bump into you on accident? Or the dude who really was just peeing?

Um...did your Mama never tell you that the world ain't fair?

Here, I'll say it again:
there is no right to not get your feelings hurt in an unsolicited interaction with a stranger which you initiated.

I'm shocked that this is even controversial.

ayla
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12 Oct 2012, 8:18 pm

mds_02 wrote:

ayla wrote:

I mean, you don't know this girl, you have no idea what her day has been like, maybe her dog just died, and talking to strangers is the last thing she wants to do.

well, yeah, she doesn't know him either, but she didn't approach him right? he put himself in a position where a bad outcome is possible.
In an ideal world people would have perfect lives and no one would have a bad day and tell you to f**k off, in this world people have problems and being on a bus or walking down the street is not an invitation to being flirted with.

Again, body language please! I would say that if you have not made eye contact with a girl, and she has not smiled or something, don't bother trying.

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12 Oct 2012, 8:19 pm

mds 02; please, you have taken my comment completely out of context. I was not advising on how to respond to nice men who approach for conversation. I was advising the OP, who is clearly being troubled by strangers hitting on her. Strangers who don't take no for an answer.

Men, do not assume that many women are going to react well to total strangers approaching them with comments about how good they look. You know this already, surely.

Guys who approach beautiful women (who they've never met before) with any kind of talk about her physical self, are not trying to be nice and develop relationships. They are being crude.

My friend had enough experience to know that and she cut it short by responding in kind. It was verbal shorthand. Everyone was then able to go on with whatever they were doing.

I hardly think this kind of crudity has anything to do with the kinds of challenges faced by earnest men who are looking to date women and are struggling with poor self image due to inate social awkwardness.

Last edited by MountainLaurel on 12 Oct 2012, 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

DogsWithoutHorses
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12 Oct 2012, 8:27 pm

mds_02 wrote:

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

I trust people to use their individual judgement on whether or not someone is sexually harassing them.
Believe it or not I can tell the difference between "whoops train jolted" and a dick intentionally rubbing on my ass. Creeps rely on our self doubt and unwillingness to make a scene or hurt feelings to get away with being creeps. They exploit the social pressure to be nice.
And if sometimes someone feels a threat where one wasn't intended, well I'm not too concerned with that.
Because even if someone slips and accidentally punches you in the face, your face is still punched. If you step on my foot, I'm gonna say "ow hey" even if it was an accident.
There is a difference between action and reaction.
Also, let's not pretend that men and women are on equal footing in society. Because it's very silly, whether or not an individual views me as a collection of holes, the culture we're in does.
link

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12 Oct 2012, 8:37 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Ah, so your personal opinions are "society" and mine make me an "@sshole" cause you consider yourself more informed and Declare it So.[/i]

The problem with that argument is that I can essentially say "Me too, ME TOO!! !"
and I've refuted your whole damned argument.[/i]

as I've said already, my personal opinions do not match the rest of society. I do not claim to be more informed. I only mentioned the effort I've put into understanding social mores to refute your claim that I am simply assuming that society's opinions match mine. Unlike you, however, I do give more weight to what society as a whole considers acceptable (even if my understanding of it may be flawed) rather than forcing everyone around to go along with the way I prefer to do things.

Quote:

In other words, you have no freaking idea what Moral Relativism is, do you? :lol:

Hint: implying it's wrong to act as does a "certain group based on their past experiences"
(ya know, because it's not the LARGER group, based on the same thing) means you're still appealing to it.

i'm saying there are certain behaviors that are acceptable and certain behaviors that are not. Regardless of an individuals past experiences. Period. You're the one going on about how different people have different experiences so they should all just act however they please.

Quote:

Women studying at school, reading, shopping in the supermarket, etc AREN'T THERE TO GET TO KNOW YOU, AND AREN'T OBLIGATED TO. They're there to study, read, shop, etc.

And what kind of arrogance makes someone think that they are above being spoken to when out in public? So much so that they feel the need to insult anyone who tries

Quote:

The same way some people would swat a fly before they'd beg it to go away.
It involves a basic response to someone being annoying/irritating/creepy.

Guess that's the difference between you and me. I see my fellow human beings as, you know, human beings. Deserving of respect and courtesy until they demonstrate otherwise. While you apparently see them as insects to be swatted away.

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