OliveOilMom wrote:
CrinklyCrustacean wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
Why is it seen as a bad thing if a woman is strong enough to stand her ground and take care of herself and she wants to empower other women to do the same?
This is speculation, but I'd guess it's because a man who has been brought up to do the gentlemanly things, not out of sexism but out of courtesy, suddenly finds himself without a role to fill and also feeling that the approach of, "I don't need that attitude thanks very much, that's sexist!" is basically invalidating his honest attempts to do the right thing. Of course he's going to feel threatened.
OliveOilMom wrote:
Why do the same women who say "We don't want men to open our car doors for us, we don't need that, we are capable of doing it ourselves and don't need to be treated like glass!" then turn around and say "We need protection from whiners saying words we don't like!"? I really want to know that. I do. I really do.
I don't know.
Crinkly, I don't have any problems with men opening doors or holding my chair or my coat or any of those things. That's not what I meany by being strong. Displaying manners and graciously accepting other peoples manners doesn't make you not strong. My definition of strong women were women who don't take sh** from people and who stand up for themselves and defend themselves and refuse to see themselves as victims or potential victims.
If you have been raped or otherwise assaulted, you have been a victim.
If you're underpaid because female, you are a victim.
If you've been kept out of opportunities because female, you're a victim.
If your labor has been stolen, you're a victim.
If you walk into a room and are a target of bullying because female, you're a victim.
If you've been harassed on the street, you're a victim.
If you've been mommy-tracked at work or treated as though you can't be smart because you're a mom, you're a victim.
Pretending that this isn't happening is...you know, it's so sad, watching kids get bullied and taking it. Just taking it and smiling and hoping that "bein' one of the guys!" means they'll get along and the guys will be nicer next time. The guys are never nicer next time. They know the perfect victim is one who'll just keep taking it and pretending nothing's wrong.
You know what, OOM? In life, people get f****d sometimes. They really do. It happens to everyone. But if it's happening to you chronically, and it's happening because of things that have nothing to do with you, but with prejudices -- that's when you can go and fight.
I talk to a lot of women who are afraid to fight because they're afraid of what bad thing might happen next to them. How things could get worse. And the truth is they weren't brought up to expect much. They always kind of expected boys would push them around in every way, because that's just how things go for so many, and the women in their families always just smoothed things over and told them it was better that way than fighting. I was luckier than that. I grew up expecting to have everything a guy might, including all his rights and privileges. And for a good long time, I really did have a lot of those. It wasn't until I was in my 30s that I received my demotion to "lady". And holy s**t, did that make my head spin.
You may not see it, but I sure do, how women get robbed. It starts with disrespect.
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Also, ones who can differentiate between an perceived threat "Looking good baby!" said from a guy on a scaffold, or an offer to help change your flat tire and an actual threat - guy following you, body language and facial expression and tone, overall situation, etc.
Again, you're willfully deaf to all the things these thousands of women are telling you.
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I think one of the things that make many feminists mad about strong women is that those like me are proponents of personal responsibility.
I'm not even. Just not even.
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Also of not blowing things out of proportion. Like the huge offense that many take to simple traditional manners that men display sometimes toward women. It's not a ploy to make us dependent on them again and throw us back in the kitchen and birthing rooms.
Actually there are a good many men who'd be happy to see that. They're also waiting for you online. But you're missing the point. The point is what happens when women refuse to accept the disrespect inherent in "simple traditional manners", and how very angry men can get when a woman says, "No thank you." Because they have real trouble seeing that the woman is not there to play a role in their chivalry show. It isn't what she's there for.
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When a woman who has pretty much made all harrassment and fear of men in her own life come to a grinding halt, and has done so by dealing with the situations on an individual basis, rather than wanting to legislate and regulate and demonize everybody in the process, we are seen as a problem to the movement.
And that's because the only reliable instrument of enforcement is the law. You have benefited by these laws. So have I, and so does my daughter. If you have no personal power in a situation, you still have that law. Maybe you're interested in the young women involved in the cases against 55 universities. If there were no law, they'd be SOL in enforcing any changes and being compensated for damages.
I work in an environment that used to be perfectly grab-ass. Were it not for law, and for several local women willing to use those laws, it would still be that way, and I'd have no choice but to walk into disrespect and humiliation daily so that I could make a living. I'd have no choice but to send students to male profs everyone knew groped the kiddies. All that's changed because of law and penalties. You know, OOM, as I write this, I think, Jesus, this lady has no idea what goes on, yet she feels fine telling women what they should and shouldn't get upset about.
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I remember one of the things the women's movement used to talk about was feeling safe walking down the street. I agree that it's important and because of my efforts I feel safe walking down almost any street.
Really? Let me introduce you to some streets. Better, let me introduce you to the fountain of women's voices saying that it doesn't matter that you, OOM, feel safe; THEY DON'T AND FOR GOOD REASON.
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I don't let men walk all over me and I don't sit back and let ridiculous opinions of sexist people go unchallanged. I thought that was what we were supposed to do, base feminism on strength of character, will, and mind, rather than on fear and personal feelings. Maybe I'm just stuck in the early days of it when we had something to fight to get, which we did get.
(tiredly) With laws. And votes. And money. And yelling, and "whining", and all the instruments of power you so readily dismiss. Really, I think I'm done arguing with you about this, I've got work to do.
30 Jun 2014, 5:46 pm
