Dating advice vs. gender equality

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In the interest of not offending anyone (edit: by poorly summarizing it), you should check out Twitter and #yesallwomen

What I mean by mid 1900 values is that it's more about traditional dating. Getting married at 18 and staying together through thick and thin. (Seemingly) less divorce and less sleeping around prior. I feel like as a 26 year old guy, I'm chasing 23 year old women and they are into all of this "young girl" bullcrap and they are less direct and professional with their communication, assuming they communicate in the first place. I prefer communication to be professional, almost as if reading a letter written by a soldier in the Civil War to his wife vs. reading a letter written by a soldier in the Iraq war to his wife. Big difference.

So no, I do believe that women should be allowed to vote, have jobs and do whatever they please. I'm just not into this "young people" bullcrap I see nowadays. I was born in the wrong era. It's probably why I'm more often attracted to older women. (Who for the most part are also ambivalent to my entire existence as anything more than just a friend) But heck, if I had a dollar for every time that happened I wouldn't have student loans.

I don't think anyone was accusing you of having a lack of generosity. Your first post reflects similar sentiments I have. I think that the ladies here were warning of sending out the wrong message on accident (which is easy to do, especially as an autie). It's easy to imagine how one could overemphasize equal share on a date and accidentally look stingy. You asked for some advice, but without knowing who/how you are and how you interact with others in real life, you are going to get some advice that might not apply to you. If this is the case, that's fine. I thought tarantella's and most of oddlyeffective's advice was pretty good, even if it doesn't apply to you, though I've known people who have been largely unaware of how they represent themselves to others, and this advice would be well suited for them (but it's hard to know that this does not apply to you without knowing you in real life).

As for bringing up "the talk" (in this case, about how to split the check), I've noticed that in U.S culture there is a tendency to ask out now, get to know latter, ie, you date someone in order to get to know them better (and you don't know them very well to start out with). Where I'm from, it is the opposite, ie, you get to know someone and decide to date based on how well you get along (friends first). I think the latter's strategy is more effective in finding a compatible match, but it's a more lengthy, sporadic process. Given this 'strategy', you'll have plenty of opportunities to find out/discuss how they treat "going out". However, if you rely on the former's strategy, it would be odd and out of place to have that as one of your first discussions (which I think is what you were getting at. I don't want to misrepresent you, so correct me if I'm wrong). It's been my experience, however, that the more feminist ladies are generally aware of this dilemma, and unless you offer to pay in full, they will speak up and request that the check be split when the waitress/er asks how you want it (this isn't everyone, but most of the progressive thinkers I know do this).

But yes, your post is an accurate observation of how the majority of the dating world works, though depending on location, education, etc, there will be different trends and levels of prevalence of these behaviors in the surrounding cultures.

Looking into behavioral economics is a good suggestion. Research is finding out that we are much less rationally minded than we think we are (or perhaps more accurately, rationality works very differently than we once thought). Everyone. Even you. Even me. You asked "What is a boy to do?", and part of the answer is "not much you can do". But understanding how landscape functions can be very reassuring, and might be helpful in learning how to discuss the situation in a more productive manner (I'm referring to in real life, when gender roles come up in discussions). Also, take a feminism class, I bet there'd be a better chance of finding someone to your liking. Plus learning's always cool. Or relocate to a cultural milieu that fits your desires better (they do exist).

Also, I realize that you were making an analogy to the neo-Nazi comment when you said "I don't think they should take formal action against the men responsible for sexual harassment.", but that was in pretty bad taste. I'm a big fan of sarcasm, but when it's used in relation to a sensitive topic, directed towards something really sh***y someone is currently going through, that's inappropriate.

These studies seems to be based on a questionnaires and specific case studies, which makes it's conclusion rather questionable in scientific terms. A lot of social science studies are considered questionable because of this in the scientific world and for good reasons. There are a lot of problems with research like this: people know they are being researched and adjust their behaviour and choices. Tastes and desires vastly change when under stress and when people feel like they are being judged for their actions. What I would like to see is research based on actual hard statistics, such as the statistics from dating websites. There you could actually see if a phenomena like an alpha male exists in the dating world: for example if 90% of the actively searching females respond to only 10% of the males then it would give clear indication of such a phenomena.

When you ask a person what they look for in a partner they will almost all say the same: friendly, funny, loyal and caring. But being funny or friendly rarely sparks the interest of the opposite gender, when people say they want to meet someone funny and friendly they usually mean that they want to meet someone who is funny and friendly that they are already attracted to in the first place. What people say they want and what they actually want are two very different things. Attraction is very much an unconscious process that that takes hard-wired natural attraction factors into account, much more than what people say they want. We are animals after all, it's only natural for the female to be attracted to a healthy and strong male and the male to be attracted to a fertile female.

How then do you explain all the over-50s dating sites, or the fact that physically disabled people date? Or people dating smokers? Again, you've got biological theories going hunting among the forest of facts.

Where one eye catches another, people will date. And if they understand each other and see the world similarly, maybe it turns into something more.

I remember being at a conference once, standing talking to a fellow I'd just met, and I knew within minutes that if the chance arose I'd sleep with him. He wasn't stereotypically prepossessing at all: short, broke, in so-so shape, too old to still be in grad school. I don't think he had a car. Loved the mind, thought he was very funny, saw he was a sexy guy, too. Had a very amusing time that weekend. Would I have considered for a second marrying him? No. Not because he was broke, but because he was a flake. But that doesn't matter for a weekend.

I'm in my 50's, and can, most definitely, be attracted to people older than me.

I could be totally turned off to a model in her 20's. I can sense if there's a putrid smell underneath a beautiful body.

It's not the chronological age that matters--what matters is the spirit of the person.

Your line of reason is oh so familiar with me because it is so similar to mine. I am physically attractive and look kind of intimidating/authoritative because of the way I carry myself. I learned to act this way in order not to get bullied and to attract female attention. The thing is, I can get women by acting all macho, but it is the wrong type of women. A lot of women are attracted to me initially. However, when they get to know me a little better and see that I am not an "alpha male" as many put it, they get turned off. The truth is, the mainstream dating advice works for the mainstream. The truth is a lot of women, a whole lot of women, buy into traditional gender roles. However, there are plenty of guys who are not alpha males who get women. How many do you know of? I know of several. In fact, I'll take it ever further. I know a lot of geeks and nerds who get women. You want to know why? Because there are female geeks and nerds out there, and there are women who are attracted to geeks and nerds. My point is that the percentage of women who you (and me) are compatible with are much, much smaller than average, but the majority of people on earth are female. I think there are 7 billion people on earth right now. That's over 3.5 billion women. You only need one. Don't look for "the average girl". Look for someone who wants what you have to offer, women who are truly turned off by macho behavior and are not turned off by your egalitarianism.

Look at it from the opposite perspective (what you are looking for in a woman, not what a woman is looking for in a man). How do you feel about women who are super feminine (meaning they are passive and expect the man do everything and make all the decisions)? Do you prefer those women? It sounds like you don't, so if you got in a relationship with a woman like that, it probably wouldn't be very satisfying for you.

Last edited by em_tsuj on 03 Sep 2014, 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I hope I am not putting words your mouth, tarantella64, but when you talk about using conversation as a vetting process for potential dates, I interpret that to mean talking to a woman to see what her attitudes are about things you find important. You are not talking about having a specific conversation about who pays for the date. Am I correct in my interpretation?

Yes, that's right. Although, again, I wouldn't call this "vetting". It's a bit of mutual butt-sniffing, is all -- finding out whether this is someone you enjoy talking to, with whom you seem to get on, share interests, perspectives, that sort of thing. Whether or not you find the person attractive, someone you want to get to know better, go for the archetypal walk with. If none of that is there and you're interested in anything more than a f**k and goodbye, there really isn't much point in getting together, I think.

don't see how that would help. I just meant that saying guys who open doors or pay for food are doing so only for sex or something is a false assumption. are there guys who do that yes. they call themselves pua. but there are lots of guys that do that cause 1. its nice 2. society says guys pay.
I open doors for everyone cause its the nice thing to do. doesn't take too long and hardly effects me. If i want sex I'd try with permission to get her hot, by cuddling and kissing til she moves it til sex, if it never moves past cuddling and kissing thats fine too.

don't see how buying a woman food or opening a door would bee seen as payment for anything except in a case of i buy this time you buy next time.



what about those people who never catch anyone's eye?

i don't get short term dating or one night stands. so when women say they would date a guy but not marry that just seems stupid to me.

you confuse me cause you say you would date a poor guy and if needed pay for his dinner , but you also say your ex was that way and you'd never date another. so would you or would you not consider being in a ltr with a guy who makes $9-11 an hour at a job he loves?

i suffer alot cause i am middle ground. I am not jobless/homeless/ but i'm not middle class. I have a car but not a great care, but I also loath riding bike for transportation I won't be able to pay my student loans of timely it'll take the rest of my life to pay my debts back. people here tend to be left leaning hippos or right leaning conservatives. so they think i'm trash or only rid bikes. well some only rid bikes and think i'm trash. in in trugh I could pay back my studen debt alone, but its coupled with credit debt and the two together make it impossible to pay back.

most women in my area care quite abit about how much money a man makes. i don't know if its different elsewhere but i can't leave anyways. and if its not money its looks or body shape, if not that its they want a country guy or if not that they want a left leaning guy, or attractive guy. oh why do i bother living. really doesnt seem there is a woman who could love or want me for being me.

I just started doing this recently when I see a woman I'm attracted to. I don't do the PUA thing anyway--haven't for a long time because I am terrible at picking up women I don't know--but I converse and stay polite and take notes when I am around women I consider potential partners. Sometimes I flirt, not expecting anything to come of it. The main thing is that I take mental notes in case the opportunity arises for something romantic to develop. I think getting older I realize that I don't have time or emotional energy to waste when I know from the get-go that we are not compatible.

Apologies-I read first & last page of thread & it became too much to address all the things I agreed or disagreed with.
Felt I had to respond to the above pieces of advice. I'm a female and I cannot speak for other females, don't know how representative of my gender I am (or not).
Personally I disagree with everything in that list.
Lone exception is the thing about driving/having a car-
and that's not a gender thing, it's that I don't drive/have a car either, so on practical level it's not gonna' work out
if hypothetical awesome guy and I can never meet, geographically.

I understand feeling tension & ambivalence between trying to have broad appeal to the opposite gender,
yet also not wanting to have to pretend to be other than how one is, in hopes of attracting/interesting the rare somebody
who will dig that authenticity and straightforwardness (lack of pretense and BS macho posturing).

I think there's a difference between dating as an adult (say late 20's and above) and dating as a kid (say 15-25) and I agree with Timmy (for the most part) for dating as a 15-25 year old, but I agree with belfast for dating someone older (or more mature) than that.

The problem (as if there's only one) is that I'm 26 and I'm surrounded by people into that dating bullcrap Timmy references whereas I'm looking for something real and much more mature where we don't waste time with playing games and other bullcrap, just straight communication.

In relationship we have to maintain a certain age gap in between of the couple, Especially we should need to take it as an important aspect in online dating. Online Dating is the selectable source to meet the various people and build the relationship as per our interest. Before we can interact with any person better to go through its original portfolio and start a relationship especially when it was starting up with online.



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Last edited by B19 on 13 Dec 2019, 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.: spammer

There is no discripency here. When you are talking about looking for a partner it's just taken as an unspoken given that you will be refering to someone you already find attractive. Being attracted to the person is the base criteria, then after that you'll be looking for x, y and z. If you are not actually attracted to the person they are a friend.

People saying that they are looking for a "friendly, funny, loyal and caring" person are not lying, they ae not saying one thing and then doing another. They just assume that you know they mean someone who I am attracted to has to be friendly, funny, loyal and caring before I will consider going out with them. If they are just someone I am attracted to and they have a rubbish personality there's no point going there.

TimmyBoy

Sorry I haven't read the 5 pages of posts but one thing caught my eye from the initial pages

Yes. Yes it does imply that you are going to pay. You ask for the date. You pay for the date. It doesn't have to be an expensive date. It is simply not the same social context as going with your mate to the pub. You take the RISK of carrying the whole cost of the date. If she offers to pay her share or for the whole date you may accept it. But I wouldn't. Not on a first date.

I am very egalitarian, but this the man paying for the date is something I EXPECT. However, I also accept the possibility that he may expect me to pay for my half so I am prepared to pay for part of the date. I'm not going to offer though. If that filters me out of some guy's process, guess what - GOOD. I am looking for generosity in a potential partner and the ability of them to carry at least their own weight financially. This is part of the signalling process.

You want a filtering process for potential mates? One exists. It's called dating. You cannot expect everyone you date to be any good for you. They won't be.

As for all the arbitrary machismo stuff...don't buy it and don't wear it.