Mixed messages

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Oh really, so bad hygiene, lack of communication skills, poor dress sense, nervousness, race/ethnicity, physical appearance, lack of social skills, not being financial attractive, not having friends, not being cool....all these myriad of things take a back seat to "oh he could be dangerous"?

Absolutely. In a game of “Would You Rather,” I’d rather be with someone who is nice but stinky than with someone who seems dangerous in some way.

Safety is often number one. Then whatever other preferences a woman might have. It’s not even something that’s always thought through 100%. Sometimes a person makes someone feel uncomfortable/unsafe, and they don’t entirely know why. Other times, the concerning behavior is more striking.

I'll say something unpopular but then again I'm not "Mr Popularity" here. I think I understand going through bad experiences makes a person hypervigilant. But their experiences doesn't mean all women are equally hyper sensitive for scanning for safety red flags. Of course any strange man who walks up to you to engage needs to be vetted. But whether you give that person a chance to talk is also governed by other factors.

I'm sorry but the average woman (at least here in Australia) doesn't run around thinking "OMG could he be a serial killer" or "maybe him". they give people something called "the benefit of doubt". Most men are not aggressive, or invade your personal space or creepy.

I think you’re reading more into what I wrote than I intended. Most women don’t think that someone could be a serial killer, but they want to feel comfortable/safe with the person and will be put off by creepy behavior. Given the research I cited earlier, most of us have experienced harassment to some degree (or worse) or know people who have. There’s just a lot of awareness around this topic, perhaps especially since the #MeToo movement.

How are men supposed to meet women if it is socially inappropriate or considered creepy to approach women in public? I can't just wait for a pretty girl to knock on my door one day and ask for my hand in marriage.

Interesting, so research is relevant when it comes to generalizing some things in relation to dating but not others?
Ok so the issue is
1. Why is this man approaching me?
2. What is his intention?
9 out of 10 times (again at least in Australia) it's small talk. I do it all the time. I talk to women even girls. How do I get to the post-office, what time is the train? or I'll just make a comment. And guess what! 9 out of 10 times I get a response and there's reasonable dialogue that takes place. Occasionally I get ignored but that's ok too.

Public interaction is normal. My daughter gets asked numerous times by people to take a photo, she always obliges. I just spoke to her 5 minutes ago about this discussion we are having. She shrugged her shoulders and said she is fine when she goes out. She doesn't understand the fuss.

^I'm assuming she means that other people ask her to take a photo of themselves, because they are vacationing and want a photo of themselves. If they are taking photos of your daughter that is super creepy!

I think this is a serious question. There are so many behaviors by men that are deemed unacceptable that it leaves men not knowing what is okay and what they can do. It's also an issue that men who are socially awkward and clumsy are sometimes more likely to be considered creepy than men who are smooth and slick, though the latter could potentially be more of a threat.

Yes I realsed as I pressed "submit" it might be interpreted that way. No usually a group asking her to take photos of them. My daughter is into photography and walks around clicking away. Naturally people ask her to take pictures of them with their camera.

thank you! this is what a lot of men on WP (not me personally) want to know how to fix

I'm honestly baffled that explaining how a safety tactic I've used in the past to explain a possible source of the mixed message snowballed into women think all men are serial killers but it's a little dramatic. Maybe we could tone it down? I realize it's an uncomfortable topic, women talking about how we've been harassed and the safety measures we'd had to take into account, but explaining why certain things make us feel unsafe should ultimately help y'all in the long run. You should want to make the women around you feel safe.

Like Bee said this is a really valid question, but I also think this question misses the point. I'm pretty sure it wasn't said anywhere that you can't approach women in public. Just like Cyberdad said we've got all sorts of casual interactions with random strangers from asking about bus schedules to asking to snap a picture for a tourist. There's nothing inherently strange about that, so why would it be blanketly socially inappropriate or creepy to be approached by a strange man for something innocuous?

The difference lies in that there's another layer to our social interaction with strange men that y'all don't seem to have? We have to do a threat assessment. Even if we don't do it consciously. We have to make a decision whether or not we feel safe around a man, and in what contexts we can feel safe around a man. Some man asking me about the bus schedule is completely different than a man asking me for my phone number, to bring it back to our original mixed message. There's nothing wrong with asking for a phone number, let me make that clear, but now you're asking for access to me. You're no longer some stranger I'll never see again, you want to potentially be part of my life. That can come with it's own set of risks that have to be vetted consciously or unconsciously. Some "games" and fickleness are actually part of the vetting process.

Just to be very clear: Nothing about the story you relayed with the young woman came across as creepy or strange. You didn't do anything wrong there. There's nothing creepy about asking for someone's number after a pleasant conversation. I was just trying to explain a common safety scheme that might explain her mixed message and some examples of when I have used it after it was implied I was lying. I've only used it in far more terrifying circumstances than the one originally painted in the OP because those were the times I felt too unsafe to be my usual blunt self. Other women, many of my friends for example, are socialized totally different from me and give soft nos all the time. They tend to get more complaints about mixed messages than I do if late night venting sessions tell me anything. Also, just because I've had some terrifying incidents with a few men doesn't mean I'm afraid of all men or think the vast majority are serial killers. Well, I am afraid of all drunk men, but I feel like that's slightly justified.

thank you Rhapsody, I think this is all I wanted you to clarify. But I think we do not know what this woman who interacted with Canadian Freedom was was initially curious when she approached him so she made the first move.

I'm so glad my clarification made you feel better. Now it's your turn.

Discussing the safety issues women face and our vulnerabilities is not an attack on men. But you know what is an attack on the women here? Suggesting that we are lying because our lived experience is different than yours. Jumping immediately to dramatics when we bring up an issue. Saying that I, and other women, do certain things when we feel unsafe and that statistically many of us have reasons to feel unsafe shouldn't be immediately followed up with dramatic complaints like suggesting we think all men are serial killers. Using the women you have access to in order to dismiss our lived experiences, because we are apparently a monolith? And the worst, the absolute worst is insinuating that I deserved to be harassed for being in the "wrong" place at the "wrong" time. None of these things are conducive to a discussion, and are inappropriate.

Maybe this thread should be locked, nothing positive seems likely to come from it. My apologies to the OP, I think he meant well when he started the thread, but on today's WP it was probably doomed from conception.

While I think a few women may be excessively defensive, I can say that EVERY woman I've known well enough to have such a discussion with has been the target of numerous unwanted advances, whether catcalling, not taking no for an answer, flashing, or outright assault. Not to cast doubt on cyberdad's daughter's experience of no unpleasant encounters, but I don't know a single woman for whom that's true.

I think it's important to incorporate other views and not interpret a different perspective as dismissing your values/perception/responses. I am also not asking you to put yourself in an uncomfortable position for the sake of it. Being able to hold contrasting views and weigh them up is important part of human growth and as humans we must always take time to evaluate situational factors as life is not static and our environment is ever changing. Being flexible and open minded to change is being human. Not locked in one mindset.