For my autistic brethern- Have you given up on love?

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That is certainly true, but it's not always based solely on status and physical appearance. For some people, personality does count.

It's like this over here in Britain, and I suspect in a good few of the other westernized countries. I don't even think it's a case of people needing to see things more realistically, I think everybody has just an extremely skewed view on reality. Personally I see Sigmund Freud as carrying a lot of the blame for where we are today. He knew that people are more easily manipulated by tapping into their wants and desires, and consequently we have a society based almost entirely on supplying people with material wants, with no emphasis on anything else when really, there is so much more to life.
As a society, we are spoiled, petty, and almost entirely out of touch with ourselves, mainly because nobody has any time to figure out who they are amidst the chaos of living. Bugger, this is turning into a big rant, but yeah, it's totally fascinating. And profoundly horrifying.

Personality definitely does count. Take for example, Mittie Bulloch, the mother of Teddy Roosevelt and the person who Scarlett O'Hara from Gone in the Wind is based on. Looking at her picture she is of about average physical attractiveness (see the wikipedia article which has a photo of her at 22). She's definitely not ugly but she isn't a 10/10 in hotness as today's terminology would put it.

However apparently her personality and charm was such that it overwhelmed people. As the first lines of Gone in the Wind go, Scarlett O'Hara was not beautiful but most men forgot that in her presence because of her charm. In fact recollections of Mittie talk about how beautiful she was when the photos clearly indicate she wasn't some physical goddess. The beauty of her character and personality overwhelmed people. In fact it so overwhelmed people that they also forgave the fact that she was also a hypersensitive neurotic who took to her bed a lot out of stress and was lucky to have an incredibly mature eldest daughter who basically ran the family in her mother's emotional absence. Despite this lack of "motherly" support, her son Teddy Roosevelt's memories of his mother are "My mother, Martha Bulloch, was a sweet, gracious, beautiful Southern woman, a delightful companion and beloved by everybody." Charm gets you a long long way, not only in terms of not having supermodel looks but also forgiving behavioral issues.

However, when people usually talk about personality they mean exactly this, *charm*, great social skills, charisma, the ability to exude warmth, make people laugh, feel good etc. The vast majority of NT people, let alone Aspies who have inbuilt social skills issues, don't have this.

I just feel that "personality" is seen as something that is more common that great physical beauty and a "consolation prize". I think having a great personality, of the type which compensates for physical beauty, is just as rare. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be as prized as it is.

ehhh who knows

I think you need to get around this feeling and stop with the resentment. It's completely silly. Being shy and anything else accociated with introvert isn't going to help you at all. I say you should try practicing being more "open". In all honesty, it will help when you change your outlook. Don't ask for god's help if you expect him to do all the work. If he does exist then surely he would expect to put some effort in so that you're fair to not only yourself but the one you're dating. I don't think that girls are superficial, rather that you weigh down your attractiveness with introvertedness. If you're fat then we're talking about something different but well you asked out girls that didn't really knew at all and I'm guessing that you only ever asked them that with first conversation with them. You need flirt and everything else that is needed. You don't go to any old stranger and ask "will you go out with me" that doesn't work at all. Make some changes and you'll be fine.

Something that stood out when I read that was "then I came to the realization that the problem wasn't me, it was girls" - that is a complete crock. I'm sorry for being blunt, but to displace all the responsibility when you don't find success in the first dozen attempts... that doesn't rest well with me, and seems like a bit of a cop-out in my opinion.


M.

yeah, sorry about the rant. It's just that I was sensing that people were using the personality thing as another cop out and reason to blame the women of the world for being "superficial". My point is that having a "good" personality, with good being defined as the type that is able to attract people despite not having looks, money or status is defined as being charming, socially skilled, warm and capable of making people just *like* you. Which can be as rare as good looks. Mittie for example was described as "wonderfully happy" and "fun-loving" and a typical Southern Belle which meant that she probably batted her eyes, teased her suitors and smiled a lot. People using the personality cop-out are unlikely to have that sort of extroverted, charming personality. To be more exact it's not that people don't value personality, it's more you don't have the type of personality that they value.

I used to be like "Oh, why does no-one ever want to talk to me. No-one likes me, etc. etc." Then I realized that I was expecting other people to do all the work, just come to me and say "Hey Annie why don't we blah." Basically I was lazy and expecting relationships to be handed to me on a silver platter. I'm trying to change that now, and I've found that my relationships have got lots better. So I have to roll my eyes at all of the "blame the rest of the world" thing going on here. Also, I've found it's not just how much effort you put in but the type of effort you put in. Just going around and asking women out might be doing 'something' and you may think 'I'm going to all this effort for no reward' but you may not be putting in the right type of effort which is learning something about the flirting game as well. I may be handicapped from the beginning due to my inability to intuitively read people but I'm trying to make up for it by using my brain. If I can study and learn the most difficult esoteric subjects in the world, I think I can study and learn this eventually, even if it's more of a flowchart thing.

makuranososhi,

I would like to note that I said in my statement that “not all girls are superficial, but I am shy around them and past experience has shown me that I can't trust them romantically speaking. As friends they are fine."

At the time, (high school) when I was being rejected so many times, I was searching and looking for an explanation as to what was going on. That was the explanation I came up with at the time, because it made sense to me. Why else would a nice guy who wasn’t out to fool around with other girls rejected? I will be honest with you, the mannerisms that girls used when they rejected me was not polite and was condescending, which further led to my belief.

Later on in college, I saw girls and saw that not all of them were superficial as I previously thought. Although I didn’t engage romantically with them, I did see some redeemable qualities about them that made me abandon my previous statement of allness.

However, I still think the majority is still superficial, and that a select minority is admirable and not so petty minded.

Resentment is the predicament,
For the dissatisfied,
Who think romance never gave them chance,
To feel such love inside.

A stanza of a poem I wrote a while back ago, but this is my belief as to why people are resentful when they have never experienced romantic love.

As for God, whether you believe in Him or not, He said in the Book Songs of Song in the Old Testament to "let love wait". In Corinthians the apostle Paul says "Now to those who are single and those who are windows, it is good for you to be single, like me, but if you can't control yourself, it is better for you to be married. For it is better for a man to be married than to burn with passion."

However, this is one area I must take the reins and push forward on. Yes, it is silly to keep this resentment, but I would argue why shouldn't you keep the resentment when everything you've seen has proven otherwise? If you change your outlook on life, and say, "Yes, I can do this" and you fail many more times, you will recede into your own negative character once again. Although the idea of
perseverance and dedication holds truth, who many of you would follow it through. We autistic people (for the most part) are very sensitive and therefore we don't want to take such a risk because many of us feel we lack self-esteem and the ability to be so bold.

No, I am certainly not fat, in fact I'm quite athletic. But that is besides the point. Yes, I learned from mistakes of asking girls out whom I hardly knew. That was sheer desperation, and the manner which the majority of girls I asked out was in a bitchy and condescending tone. They even mocked me for it, although not in front of me, but such people are arrogant scum who delight in mocking those who are trying their best to get by. Now I know how things should be done, but I have never found a girl who attractive physically and mentality, and therefore I have no need of asking out yet.

Appreciate your clarification, but it still comes across as a projection as a method to deal with rejection instead of acceptance that there are many elements beyond your control. We have a different standard for what we consider a substantial number of attempts, and that is going to cause some issues in discussion. Women aren't superficial - they're human... to make such a sweeping generalization doesn't sit well with me - however, it is your life and your perception... I hope it works out better for you in the future.


M.

Men are more superficial by nature than women. They are the gender that's so fixated on the other gender's appearance, and not so much what's underneath. Not saying it's their fault necessarily... it's more of a biological thing.

On topic, I haven't given up on love yet. I'll keep trying at it for a while.

|-o-| V4der |-o-|

Not all men are that way. While I still do care somewhat about appearance (as most men as well as most women do), the personality is far more important than appearance...

Okay. But most men are inclined to gauge appearance first, whereas women gauge personality first.

If women gauged personality first, I would be swarmed with women right now... if only...

I'm just new to these forums, but I thought I might offer something from a neurotypical point of view. I'm married to a man with aspergers ( have been for 10 years now ) and I have a child on the autism spectrum, I also work with kids with ASD. So I can see things from a number of perspectives ( at least I hope I can )

The thing about love.. is that although you can choose people to ask out or spend time with that you think will fit your check list of things to look for ( mental one or maybe on paper ? ) having all those qualities checked off.. does not = love.
Love is something that happens at a more chemical level ( I think ) as well as a meeting of the minds ( one would hope )

I had a boyfriend once.. that would have been my perfect guy ( if I had written a description of my perfect guy ). But .. that relationship was very boring ..and did not last. There was just no " spark " there.

For the guys with Aspergers that are worrying that they will never find that right person .. I suggest to you that you may find someone when you are older ( ie not early 20's ) .. because women that are older tend to value the qualities that someone that is thoughtful and intelligent brings to a relationship, younger women and men( a rash generalisation ) on the whole tend to look for more superficial qualities and do not take time to look at the whole person.

There is hope.. there are tons of women and men that have aspergers that are in successful relationships.. take your time and the right person will come along.

Happily married to a wonderful man with Aspergers.

Saffy, what were the circumstances under which you first met and became involved with your current husband? If you don't mind my asking, that is. I'm always curious as to how these "successful" relationships occur. Aspie guys need more examples to follow.