Bigotry against involuntarily celibate men

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Stop putting things in each other's mouths. (Sorry guys I couldn't resist)

It's not that men must always initiate, it's that women seldom do, so if I want a relationship and no one initiates anything with me, my only option is to take the initiative. As for your contention with the concept of sexual market value, you're allowed to believe that, but the way I see it every relationship, friendship, and work relationship is transactional in nature. There's give and take, and if you have nothing to give you're going to be overlooked. If you disagree, explain the logic behind why.


I already have a pretty good idea of why women aren't attracted to me, and I'm taking steps to rectify the things that hinder my chances with women, for instance my weight and physique are not only likely not attractive to most women, but I dont like them either, so I'm limiting my intake of junk food and trying to get more exercise into my life. But sure, I'm not trying something that might work.

Yes, and it's something I learned the hard way. It's also part of the reason why I became clinically depressed in the first place. I wondered why I was never approached first and finding out why increased my anxiety instead of soothing it.

Mark, I honestly believe you can succeed if you take my advice. But I also believe you're not going to get anywhere if you dont change your approach.

Many people here have said about the exact same thing for the last ~6 years I’ve been on this forum.

A year ago I’d have told you that you were wasting keyboard strokes because he’s unwilling to do anything differently and simply wants to vent.

But he’s had a better tone the last few months. Something has changed. Maybe a new therapist, maybe different medication, but something has changed and his threads have been asking smarter questions about why things are the way they are for him And what to do about it.

So, maybe, just maybe he’ll eventually be ever more open to the idea of different approaches to resolving his problems.

Last edited by goldfish21 on 18 Nov 2018, 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's good that you're trying to take better care of yourself and that will surely increase your chances, but you should be aware that keeping the mindset of all human interaction being transactional is going to be a problem for a lot of women and decreases your chances. Why not work on your perspective too, try to be less negative about humanity, if that can increase your chances as well?

I don't know how to explain to you why I believe that all human interaction is not transactional. I don't even know how to explain to you how my relationship with my pets isn't transactional. It's not about exhanging goods or information, it's about coexisting with them. Same to be said about friends and loved ones--yes we support each other and there is "give and take" in that, but it's not transactional in nature. It's about coexisting. There is something about the connection you make with someone when you are on the same wavelength that can't be explained in terms of transactions. It affirms your very existence in a way no transaction of goods or services can. When you share mental and emotional space with other people, it feeds your spirit in a way that is not a giving or a taking but rather a lifting up. I don't know how else to word it to explain my "logic", because it's esoteric and I don't know how logic in general can be applied to human interaction.

I really struggle to understand this transactional mindset, so it's hard for me to explain what it's like not to feel that way about relationships.

If I change my approach, it won't be how my detractors want me to do it which is essentially to tell myself I am "messed up" and put myself away until I am deemed "fit" for society. I don't want them to celebrate. Also, contrary to what my detractor said here, I am not seeing a new therapist and I am not on new medication.

Last edited by Marknis on 19 Nov 2018, 12:31 am, edited 4 times in total.

I’m pretty certain that none of his detractors have ever posted any such thing and that statement is a product of his own clinical depression.

To the contrary, I am 100% positive that his detractors’ advice has been to focus on the very foundational basics of personal improvement, mainly healthy living via good old fashioned diet and exercise, in order to be healthier, happier, and more attractive to others. I’m also sure that once he loves himself, he’ll be able to be loved by others - much the same as every other human being.

But he reads these positive words and sends his so called detractors very nasty pm’s suggesting that his so called detractors in fact wish him harm & want him to fail. In reality, these are fabrications of his own mind. He has no detractors & his so called detractors want him to be healthy, happy, and to achieve his goal of having a partner in life - because those are good things, and people should have good things if they want them. And there are more than enough good things to go around, so his success and attainment of good things doesn’t negatively impact anyone else’ ability to tap into the abundance of the universe and obtain good things for themselves. So there’s no logical reason he should believe anyone doesn’t want him to have good things, really.

Well you don't consider me a detractor, do you? I know sometimes I might come off as cold but it's only because I genuinely want to see you succeed, and I think with a few changes implemented that you can, but not under your current set of circumstances. Others might consider it a waste of time to continually engage in conversation with you, but if something I say sticks with you and you're able to use it to better your life then I consider repeating similar advice over and over again to be worth it.

I hope one day we'll both be successful. I'm implementing changes in my own life to reap the results that I want and hopefully if I'm successful it might be able to inspire you to do the same.

When I say transactional, I don't mean that once I've done a favour for someone I care about that I expect something in return. If I'm ever in a similar situation to one I helped someone get out of and that person has the means to help me, I would think it would be unreasonable if they didn't. I guess to the extent that I mean a relationship is transactional, I mean there has to be some semblance of balance between giving and taking from both sides, or else there's a problem. For instance my brother recently lent money to a close friend of his with the understanding that he would receive it back quickly, but when he called the friend to chase it up, he was always given excuses as to why the friend couldn't pay the money back, until one day it escalated to a shouting match and now they're no longer speaking, and of course my brother didn't get his money back. In that situation the friend was doing too much taking and my brother was doing too much giving, and friendships or relationships just don't work with that kind of imbalance. Likewise there would be an imbalance between what an unattractive homeless guy could bring to the table if he was trying for a rich and popular supermodel. I think we might agree more than we think, but you dont like some of the terms I'm using, or we're getting our semantic lines crossed.

Well he doesn't consider me a detractor. Y'all should be more like me.

If relationships aren't transactional, then how come "what do you have to offer" and "you need to improve yourself so you have something to offer" are such common phrases in these kinds of discussions? Kind of implying a transaction there. Those are the first things I ever see when a guy complains about being lonely. The idea of simply "connecting" with somebody is rarely brought up.

Basically this. We don't start off viewing relationships through a transactional lense. We only conclude as much when we figure out we don't have what women want. You might consider that a generalization and to some extent I'd agree, but when all you've ever experienced is an inability to get into relationships despite wanting one for years, it's hard not to feel like you're not good enough and that you need to improve upon aspects of your life to better-conform to what women want when your love life consists only of a series of rejections. It's hard to internalize all that rejection and not believe that the bar is set higher than you can currently reach.

Where I differ with incels and incel culture is I dont think it's completely hopeless for me, nor do I blame women for my own shortcomings, nor do I want to throw acid in anybody's face or kill anyone. I just want love.

Lets face the facts, unattractive men are NOT popular. (Only very few; and they usually have a 'masculine' trait like large build / frame - nearly always size or masculinity).
Its starts off in pre-school, where popular boys shun unattractive boys and form the early pecking order, but those unattractive boys usually find another friend and is more or less oblivious whats going on. But come several years later, come puberty, it becomes more apparent and the shunning gets worse as your identity develops.

And attractive people make friends way easier, are usually popular, etc. (women can be average looking & popular as well)

Does anyone agree that if you're unattractive, people will assume you're a loser? You can't just go up and talk to any girl or guy. Making friends is more hard. There are very few people that are ugly who are popular, only attractive people, above average and sometimes average looking people. There is also the "halo effect" of being an unattractive man. We are seen as mentally ill, delusional - we have these damaging labels put upon us even if not true.

I wonder what percentage of young incels find that the grass is greener on the gay side of the fence?

This^