Blog post on the epidemic of forced celibacy in males
21 Oct 2010, 12:08 pm
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
Like I said, I was trying to be helpful by floating a thought that may be useful for people who are already having difficulties with relationships and who may benefit from knowing that certain courses of action may make that situation worse. If you don't want to think about that, fine, just carry on with you personal attacks against me.
I didn't attacked you - I attacked the generalisation you made. As I said you can make whatever choice you want - identifying your position with "all nice girls" is insulting to the women who think differently and misleading the men.
Most men will be aware than some women will reject them if they see a prostitute - it might not be so relevant to them since they ended up seeing one exactly because they couldn't have another kind of relationship.
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21 Oct 2010, 12:11 pm
Craig28 wrote:
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
Like I said, I was trying to be helpful by floating a thought that may be useful for people who are already having difficulties with relationships and who may benefit from knowing that certain courses of action may make that situation worse.
What consequences those people have to endure is their problem. What they do will not affect you or your family, so what the hell is the problem?!
prostitution is a social issue that affects all of society. you don't want people bothering you about it, but it is an issue that goes beyond that. and you have no idea if the issue of prostitution is affect her personally or her family. if she has a friend or family member in the sex trade, i can tell you absolutely that the sex trade affects her personally.
but that is not what she is saying. she is saying that a man who visits prostitutes is a deal-breaker for someone of her particular morality (actually the majority of women i have spoken to have agreed with that, including ex-prostitutes). so she was cautioning you. she was trying to help you understand from her point of view.
(i don't agree it is specifically 'nice girls', but girls who share her ideals).
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21 Oct 2010, 12:21 pm
Sallamandrina wrote:
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
Like I said, I was trying to be helpful by floating a thought that may be useful for people who are already having difficulties with relationships and who may benefit from knowing that certain courses of action may make that situation worse. If you don't want to think about that, fine, just carry on with you personal attacks against me.
I didn't attacked you - I attacked the generalisation you made. As I said you can make whatever choice you want - identifying your position with "all nice girls" is insulting to the women who think differently and misleading the men.
Most men will be aware than some women will reject them if they see a prostitute - it might not be so relevant to them since they ended up seeing one exactly because they couldn't have another kind of relationship.
You used a passive aggressive attack in your first response, quoting my comment and sarcastically linking that to being a narrow minded, self righteous and judgemental woman of the type who needs weeding out. A perfect example of passive aggressive behaviour, attacking someone in such a way that you can throw up your hands and plead innocence when called on it.
21 Oct 2010, 12:22 pm
That, hyperlexian, I can fully agree with. It was just the sweeping generalisation I found - as I said - insulting and misleading. For how many women this will be a deal-breaker depends on many factors, but these guys say they see a prostitute because they can't get any other kind or woman - doesn't this make it a moot point anyway?
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"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live" (Oscar Wilde)
21 Oct 2010, 12:30 pm
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
You used a passive aggressive attack in your first response, quoting my comment and sarcastically linking that to being a narrow minded, self righteous and judgemental woman of the type who needs weeding out. A perfect example of passive aggressive behaviour, attacking someone in such a way that you can throw up your hands and plead innocence when called on it.
I have no intention to keep harping on this - you made a generalisation you're still not owning up to and I responded with a sarcastic comment, trying to mirror the intolerance in your post. I admit I could have answered in a nicer manner, just like you could have made it clear form the beginning you only speak for yourself. If you want to make this personal it's your choice.
_________________
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live" (Oscar Wilde)
21 Oct 2010, 12:45 pm
Sallamandrina wrote:
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
You used a passive aggressive attack in your first response, quoting my comment and sarcastically linking that to being a narrow minded, self righteous and judgemental woman of the type who needs weeding out. A perfect example of passive aggressive behaviour, attacking someone in such a way that you can throw up your hands and plead innocence when called on it.
I have no intention to keep harping on this - you made a generalisation you're still not owning up to and I responded with a sarcastic comment, trying to mirror the intolerance in your post. I admit I could have answered in a nicer manner, just like you could have made it clear form the beginning you only speak for yourself. If you want to make this personal it's your choice.
Like I said, passive aggressive, just like every single bully I've ever encountered.
21 Oct 2010, 12:49 pm
I get all the information on here regarding women being targets or ones that are vulnerable, but no one has stated about the male. He needs to feel safe, he has vulnerabilities too when visting working women. I always make sure that I am going to be safe before I visit a prostitute. Also, men who visit them can leave the women feeling shell shocked, in a state of confusion and anxiety to how people view him when really, like myself, its not our faults why we have to visit them.
21 Oct 2010, 1:34 pm
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
I just want to float a thought here, something for those who think about using prostitutes to consider. Are you aware of the fact that seeing a prostitute is the final death knell for any hope you have of ever having a normal relationship? That no 'nice' girl will go any where near someone who has been with a prostitute, so any relationship would have to be built on deception and would therefore be doomed to fail?
I think this is the heart of the entire thread, and it's not about the stigma of hiring a prostitute. The real issue: What right does a woman have to deem a man unacceptable, and why is it so easy? It seems that if a guy has seen a prostitute, is bisexual, has been unfaithful, or just does nerdy things, they're universally disqualified as potential mates. On the other hand, I've heard girls admit to all of the same things and sometimes even going to swingers clubs and participating in gang bangs. All which have little effect in thier ability to have all the male attention they want.
So, unless they naturally walk the fine line of perfection, for men to find partners they have to either:
A. Decieve them
B. pay for them
C. do without, become angry, and eventually blow up like George
Never hired a prostitute before, but I have nothing against those who do. It's simple, reasonable, and a way to bypass the unbearibly high standards you're expected to live up to.
21 Oct 2010, 2:08 pm
i found an eye-opening study that conducted in-depth interviews with sex trade customers (who visited women in areas where the trade is both legal and illegal). the focus of the study looked at why men visit prostitutes, and why they did so historically. the study highlights the fact that men's reasons for visiting sex workers has changed throughout history, which points to the idea that the issue cannot be treated as static over time.
the study was "Men Who Buy Sex" (link), and was authored by Prostitution Research & Education, San Francisco. it is primarily authored by an anti-prostitution advocate, which definitely raises questions about her impartiality. like the New Zealand study, which was authored* by prostitution supporters, it should be taken with a grain of salt.
*note: the authors of the NZ study spoke to varied individuals, including a nun, as part of the study. however, the nun did not fund or conduct the research, which means the the study is still suspect.
i think the statistics presented by Farley are not necessarily scientifically sound, except for those that are harvested from other research. but the interview results with Johns is eye-opening, and her references to other legitimate research is useful here.
i have included quotes from a second, impartial, study that reinforces some of the ideas that the first study puts forth. it is an an independent study funded by the Quebec government called "Is Prostitution Work or Exploitation? Further Consideration is Needed" (link)
a third, impartial, study was by compiled by Martin A. Monto, funded the U.S. Department of Justice, but it only focuses on street prostitutes. it is still important to consider because street prostitutes do not go away with legalization. the study is called "Focusing on the Clients of Street Prostitutes: A Creative Approach to Reducing Violence Against Women – Final Report" (link).
*****
i have never denied that some women enjoy the job; that is reasonable. but the majority do not, and that is also reasonable. i think 98% quoted by Farley may be an inflated number, and the author may have been speaking primarily to sex slaves in Thailand for all we know, but the attitudes of the men, and the sex worker's responses, speak volumes.
the Quebec study puts the percentage of women who want to leave the profession at 92, which is still very high. and that statistic includes both decriminalized and decriminalized nations. which questions if these women actually feel like they have any choice at all.
Farley wrote:
“Our non-profit spent 12 years studying women in nine countries on five continents,” said Farley who is executive director of the non-profit Prostitution Research & Education. “Women in prostitution, men in prostitution, and transgender people in prostitution all say the same thing. That is harmful to them and they would do anything else if they had the choice.” Farley said previous studies show 98 percent of women in prostitution do not enjoy it...
The need of some men to convince themselves that the women they buy enjoy the sex can explain why the women themselves strive to give this impression. It is, quite simply, good business practice. Since the prostituted woman is paid for acting as if she really likes him and as if she is sexually aroused by him, the woman will perform as though this is the case.
One man sought “someone who’s expensive that I’d meet in a flat that’s a brothel or a club like ‘Models Upstairs’ in Soho. Someone who puts on a good performance, who acts like they like what they’re doing.” The men seek reinforcement for the notion that women are not only totally compliant but happy to sexually service men. One man told an interviewer that he sought “a happy one and she does everything I’m looking for.” Another stated he was “after a short friendship.” The ideal experience to some men “feels like there is mutuality.”
The need of some men to convince themselves that the women they buy enjoy the sex can explain why the women themselves strive to give this impression. It is, quite simply, good business practice. Since the prostituted woman is paid for acting as if she really likes him and as if she is sexually aroused by him, the woman will perform as though this is the case.
One man sought “someone who’s expensive that I’d meet in a flat that’s a brothel or a club like ‘Models Upstairs’ in Soho. Someone who puts on a good performance, who acts like they like what they’re doing.” The men seek reinforcement for the notion that women are not only totally compliant but happy to sexually service men. One man told an interviewer that he sought “a happy one and she does everything I’m looking for.” Another stated he was “after a short friendship.” The ideal experience to some men “feels like there is mutuality.”
Quebec wrote:
Yet, many women want to leave prostitution. An international study aimed at identifying the needs of prostitutes reveals that 92% of them would like to be able to quit. Furthermore, this solution was stated before any other, be it training, legalization or protection by a pimp.
*****
men were asked if they thought women were psychologically damaged from the job, and here were the results. interesting that many men knew the damage it did yet chose to visit the women anyway:
Farley wrote:
There is extensive literature documenting that prostitution causes profound emotional damage (Baldwin, 1992; Barry, 1995; Dworkin, 1997; Herman, 2003; Hoigard and Finstad, 1986; Farley et al., 2003; Raymond et al., 2002)....
Forty-four per cent of the men believed that prostitution had a very or extremely negative effect on the prostitute. Only 19% felt that prostitution had a very or extremely positive effect on the prostitute. The positive effect they referred to was primarily a financial benefit.
One interviewee explained, “There’s an intimacy in all sex, even if it’s only a small part of sex and if you give it away to loads of men there’s not much left. It’s about giving a piece of yourself away and there’s not much left.” Another: “Once they’ve had sex for money they lose morals or values in themselves which affect their everyday life and their value of other things as well.
Some of the interviewees described the psychological damage resulting from prostitution in detail. One man understood the emotional numbing that results from prostitution. “They don’t feel anything. Their lifestyle generally makes them insensitive to warmth.” Another described complex posttraumatic disorder, a psychological condition that results from chronic traumatic stress. Prostitution “changes the person when she does it,” he said. “It changes how she looks into the world.”
However, a number of these men felt that women in prostitution had intrinsic qualities that made them different from other women and they were not aware of the specific psychological harms caused by prostitution. As a result of sexual exploitation and violence before and during prostitution, women, men and the transgendered in prostitution are known to suffer from depression, traumatic stress and other anxiety disorders, dissociative disorders, eating disorders and others (Farley et al., 2003).
“Their mind is twisted, or they’re like used,” said one man. “They’ve seen everything already. Their mind is opened up – they have no guards up.” Blaming the woman for her prostitution, another man said, “The very fact that they’re prepared to do that job where others won’t even if skint, there’s some capability inside them that permits them to do it, to not be disgusted by this, a normal woman would be if she was asked to do it.”
Another man concluded, “They must be able to have sex more often because they do it all day. They don’t mind foregoing a lover or romance or a married partner…. They don’t mind going to people’s homes for sex. They don’t mind having sex with anyone.”
One interviewee who struggled with the notion that prostitution damages women rationalised it by believing that women in prostitution are, unlike other women, intrinsically indecent and slu*ty: “It’s a dirty job in my humble opinion, having sex for money isn’t a decent thing for a human being. I wouldn’t go out on a date or be in a relationship with one of them. I don’t see myself going out with someone who has been paid for sex. I’m an old fashioned person, Roman Catholic. In high school, boys don’t want to go out with slu*ty girls. Part of my brain is divided - like a wall. I think two different ways about women.”
Forty-four per cent of the men believed that prostitution had a very or extremely negative effect on the prostitute. Only 19% felt that prostitution had a very or extremely positive effect on the prostitute. The positive effect they referred to was primarily a financial benefit.
One interviewee explained, “There’s an intimacy in all sex, even if it’s only a small part of sex and if you give it away to loads of men there’s not much left. It’s about giving a piece of yourself away and there’s not much left.” Another: “Once they’ve had sex for money they lose morals or values in themselves which affect their everyday life and their value of other things as well.
Some of the interviewees described the psychological damage resulting from prostitution in detail. One man understood the emotional numbing that results from prostitution. “They don’t feel anything. Their lifestyle generally makes them insensitive to warmth.” Another described complex posttraumatic disorder, a psychological condition that results from chronic traumatic stress. Prostitution “changes the person when she does it,” he said. “It changes how she looks into the world.”
However, a number of these men felt that women in prostitution had intrinsic qualities that made them different from other women and they were not aware of the specific psychological harms caused by prostitution. As a result of sexual exploitation and violence before and during prostitution, women, men and the transgendered in prostitution are known to suffer from depression, traumatic stress and other anxiety disorders, dissociative disorders, eating disorders and others (Farley et al., 2003).
“Their mind is twisted, or they’re like used,” said one man. “They’ve seen everything already. Their mind is opened up – they have no guards up.” Blaming the woman for her prostitution, another man said, “The very fact that they’re prepared to do that job where others won’t even if skint, there’s some capability inside them that permits them to do it, to not be disgusted by this, a normal woman would be if she was asked to do it.”
Another man concluded, “They must be able to have sex more often because they do it all day. They don’t mind foregoing a lover or romance or a married partner…. They don’t mind going to people’s homes for sex. They don’t mind having sex with anyone.”
One interviewee who struggled with the notion that prostitution damages women rationalised it by believing that women in prostitution are, unlike other women, intrinsically indecent and slu*ty: “It’s a dirty job in my humble opinion, having sex for money isn’t a decent thing for a human being. I wouldn’t go out on a date or be in a relationship with one of them. I don’t see myself going out with someone who has been paid for sex. I’m an old fashioned person, Roman Catholic. In high school, boys don’t want to go out with slu*ty girls. Part of my brain is divided - like a wall. I think two different ways about women.”
below is an evaluation of men's perspectives on the relationship between protitution and rape. the evidence demonstrates how men who visit prostitutes are not necessarily deterred from acting on the desire to rape, and the coexistence of rape and prostitution (prostitution is not a deterrent, because rape still occurs, even against the sex workers themselves):
Farley wrote:
The men expressed a number of misogynist attitudes, some of which frankly endorsed rape. Those with the highest scores on the hostile masculinity scale tended to be those who most strongly endorsed rape myths (r = 0.71, p < 0.0001). There is construct overlap between these two questionnaires which to some extent measure similar attitudes. An adversarial stance toward women was evident in many of these men’s responses. For example, 33% reported that most women are basically liars. Nearly one-half (46%) felt that most women get pleasure in putting men down. Thirty-one per cent felt that they “get a raw deal” from women in their life.
Fifty-four per cent of these London buyers subscribed to the theory that prostitution decreases rape. There is no empirical basis for this theory, nonetheless it is assumed to be the truth by many people, including these buyers. In part as a justification for prostitution, men who bought sex reasoned that if prostitution did not exist then they would be more likely to rape women who were not prostitutes.
This belief was clearly held by one man who stated that “Sometimes you might rape someone: you can go to a prostitute instead.” Forty-one per cent of 110 Glasgow and Edinburgh men who bought sex also believed this theory (Macleod, Farley, Anderson and Golding, 2008). Another man explained, “Society benefits. I’ve heard that levels of rape have decreased due to Internet porn.” And, “Prostitution is a last resort to unfulfilled sexual desires. Rape would be less safe, or if you’re forced to hurt someone or if you’re so frustrated you jack off all day.”
A related belief held by the interviewees is the notion that the concept of rape does not apply to prostitutes. Twenty-five per cent of these men believed that a prostitute cannot be raped, yet they tended to be aware of some of the factors that made women vulnerable.
Rape rate statistics from the US raise the possibility that there may actually be a positive association between legal prostitution in Nevada and higher rape rates in that state. The Nevada rate of rape was higher than the U.S. average and significantly higher than rates of rape in several more populous U.S.
Fifty-four per cent of these London buyers subscribed to the theory that prostitution decreases rape. There is no empirical basis for this theory, nonetheless it is assumed to be the truth by many people, including these buyers. In part as a justification for prostitution, men who bought sex reasoned that if prostitution did not exist then they would be more likely to rape women who were not prostitutes.
This belief was clearly held by one man who stated that “Sometimes you might rape someone: you can go to a prostitute instead.” Forty-one per cent of 110 Glasgow and Edinburgh men who bought sex also believed this theory (Macleod, Farley, Anderson and Golding, 2008). Another man explained, “Society benefits. I’ve heard that levels of rape have decreased due to Internet porn.” And, “Prostitution is a last resort to unfulfilled sexual desires. Rape would be less safe, or if you’re forced to hurt someone or if you’re so frustrated you jack off all day.”
A related belief held by the interviewees is the notion that the concept of rape does not apply to prostitutes. Twenty-five per cent of these men believed that a prostitute cannot be raped, yet they tended to be aware of some of the factors that made women vulnerable.
Rape rate statistics from the US raise the possibility that there may actually be a positive association between legal prostitution in Nevada and higher rape rates in that state. The Nevada rate of rape was higher than the U.S. average and significantly higher than rates of rape in several more populous U.S.
Quebec wrote:
Prostitution exists foremost because there is a demand. Without clients, there is no prostitution. Without the demand, there is no supply. Moreover, the demand is ever present because men think it legitimate to pay women to satisfy their sexual needs. Many believe that the sexual drive must find an outlet despite the findings by UNICEF showing that no biological imperative requires a fixed number of orgasms daily, weekly or yearly and that while individuals can occasionally feel frustrated when there is no one available to help them attain the heights of sexual pleasure, this in no way affects their survival.
Others believe that prostitutes play a preventive role by protecting other women from sexual aggression. Yet, prostitution and rape do often coexist. In effect, this latter belief is contemptuous towards those men who are supposedly incapable of restraint.
Others believe that prostitutes play a preventive role by protecting other women from sexual aggression. Yet, prostitution and rape do often coexist. In effect, this latter belief is contemptuous towards those men who are supposedly incapable of restraint.
Monto wrote:
Perhaps most importantly, prostitutes are frequent victims of violent crime, including assault, rape, and murder (Silbert, 1981; Davis, 1993; Horgard and Finstad, 1992), most of which is never reported to police (Silbert, 1981; McKeganey and Bernard, 1996). The statistics gathered by Portland’s Council for Prostitution Alternatives from women wishing to escape to sex industry are particularly powerful. Eightynine percent reported that they have been victims of rape, and ninety-three percent reported being the victims of aggravated assault (Council for Prostitution Alternatives, 1994).
*****
and about the prevalence of pimps, which are often hidden (lied about, as i said before):
Farley wrote:
Forty-eight per cent of 103 London men said they believed that most women in prostitution are victims of pimps, reflecting a reality that converges with what is known from observation and research studies (Boyer, 2008; DiPaolo, 1999; Giobbe, 1993; Herman, 2003; Ling et al., 2007; Raphael and Shapiro, 2002; Silbert and Pines, 1982; Vanwesenbeeck et al, 1995; West et al., 2000).
“Prostitution is forced on her,” explained one man, “not always physically, but definitely mentally. To convince her to do a job she doesn’t want to do, you must be a good manipulator.” A number of the men reported in-depth information about pimps. “The pimp does the psychological raping of the woman,” explained one. “The pimps treat them very harsh; they have no freedom and they have to ask for everything.” Another said, “The pimp could be a husband or boyfriend in need of cash and tells the girl: ‘You gotta make money for us.’”
Another perceived that sellers are deceptive: “Pimps know how not to look like a pimp to customers. They look like normal people and you’d never expect them to be a pimp.”
A majority of women who sell sex have pimps who may be called by other names, such as friend or husband. Nonetheless they function as pimps (McLeod, 1982; Farley, 2007).
“Prostitution is forced on her,” explained one man, “not always physically, but definitely mentally. To convince her to do a job she doesn’t want to do, you must be a good manipulator.” A number of the men reported in-depth information about pimps. “The pimp does the psychological raping of the woman,” explained one. “The pimps treat them very harsh; they have no freedom and they have to ask for everything.” Another said, “The pimp could be a husband or boyfriend in need of cash and tells the girl: ‘You gotta make money for us.’”
Another perceived that sellers are deceptive: “Pimps know how not to look like a pimp to customers. They look like normal people and you’d never expect them to be a pimp.”
A majority of women who sell sex have pimps who may be called by other names, such as friend or husband. Nonetheless they function as pimps (McLeod, 1982; Farley, 2007).
*****
about whether the act of prostitution could function on equal terms with a relationship, as both are just financial transactions (i'd never encountered that idea before hearing it on WP. i ran it by people IRL, asking if they consider real relationships and friendships are like financial transactions, and they were frankly horrified):
Farley wrote:
Although more than one-half of the men interviewed said they were currently involved in a sexual relationship with a woman, many were not, and yet the dissatisfaction felt by some looking for the ‘girlfriend experience’ led to disappointment and resentment. Many men seemed to want a real relationship with a woman and were disappointed when one did not form: “It’s just a sex act, no emotion. Be prepared to accept this or don’t go at all. It’s not a wife or girlfriend.”...
As one man interviewed for this study explained:
“The girls in Soho could just as easily have been reading a book. People can fall in a trap. One reason is sexual release; the other is to find emotional contact: that’s where the trap is. You don’t get affection, it’s just a transaction. The prostitutes that are very good at their job will kid you into feeling the connection’s really happening.”
As one man interviewed for this study explained:
“The girls in Soho could just as easily have been reading a book. People can fall in a trap. One reason is sexual release; the other is to find emotional contact: that’s where the trap is. You don’t get affection, it’s just a transaction. The prostitutes that are very good at their job will kid you into feeling the connection’s really happening.”
Monto wrote:
Not surprisingly, findings indicate a strong relationship between frequency of prostitution encounters and this measure of "commodification." More disturbing are the strong relationships between commodification and rape myth acceptance, attraction to violent sexuality, and less frequent use of condoms while with prostitutes. All of these would seem to indicate that a commodified view of sexuality could lead to a lack of respect for or even violence against prostitutes and possibly other women as well.
While acknowledging that a commodified view of sexuality is not an inevitable outcome of patronizing prostitutes, these findings suggest that the commodification of sexuality associated with prostitution encounters has a number of negative implications for the men involved, their sexual partners, and for gender relations in general.
While acknowledging that a commodified view of sexuality is not an inevitable outcome of patronizing prostitutes, these findings suggest that the commodification of sexuality associated with prostitution encounters has a number of negative implications for the men involved, their sexual partners, and for gender relations in general.
i think that our society's attitudes need to change.
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21 Oct 2010, 2:16 pm
Sallamandrina wrote:
That, hyperlexian, I can fully agree with. It was just the sweeping generalisation I found - as I said - insulting and misleading. For how many women this will be a deal-breaker depends on many factors, but these guys say they see a prostitute because they can't get any other kind or woman - doesn't this make it a moot point anyway?
well... of those men who complain of not getting any kind of woman.... how many have done any kind of extensive therapy, or tried social skills training, or attended support groups, or asked for honest advice from real-life women, or read books to help them understand how women work, or, or, or.... ?
i think quite often that a man's misogyny predates the relationship problems (i had a great deal of difficulty with misogynistic males in junior high/middle school. some grew out of that attitude, and some did not), and i think that eventually the two problems exacerbate and feed off each other.
i don't think anything is unfixable though... but i think that maybe it requires that first step of wanting to change. i don't mean massive sweeping alterations of everything that makes up a person. i mean changes in attitude, approach, and respectfulness.
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21 Oct 2010, 2:24 pm
deadeyexx wrote:
MotherKnowsBest wrote:
I just want to float a thought here, something for those who think about using prostitutes to consider. Are you aware of the fact that seeing a prostitute is the final death knell for any hope you have of ever having a normal relationship? That no 'nice' girl will go any where near someone who has been with a prostitute, so any relationship would have to be built on deception and would therefore be doomed to fail?
I think this is the heart of the entire thread, and it's not about the stigma of hiring a prostitute. The real issue: What right does a woman have to deem a man unacceptable, and why is it so easy? It seems that if a guy has seen a prostitute, is bisexual, has been unfaithful, or just does nerdy things, they're universally disqualified as potential mates. On the other hand, I've heard girls admit to all of the same things and sometimes even going to swingers clubs and participating in gang bangs. All which have little effect in thier ability to have all the male attention they want.
So, unless they naturally walk the fine line of perfection, for men to find partners they have to either:
A. Decieve them
B. pay for them
C. do without, become angry, and eventually blow up like George
Never hired a prostitute before, but I have nothing against those who do. It's simple, reasonable, and a way to bypass the unbearibly high standards you're expected to live up to.
so then, all men who get dates are perfect? wow, there are a lot of perfect people out there. of course, many aspies date or get married, so i guess they are somehow perfect too, even though they are aspies. your logic fails.
men can make mistakes, just like women. and they get away with it just as much as women. although women are closing the gap, men still cheat at a higher rate than women. it is patently false to assume women are worse than men, or that they get away with it more.
i think a person has a right to exclude others based on their morals and based on safety. for instance, i would not have sex with an intravenous drug user or a man who beats women. these things are based on my morals and my safety. men who frequent prostitutes violate my morality and my safety, and it is reasonable to expect them to avoid the sex trade.
doing without sex does not lead to behaviour like george sodini's. if you research the causes, you will see that such behaviour has no connection to sexual frustration whatsoever.
men and women have no absolute need for sex. to expect that society should remake itself to allow someone to have any is not reasonable.
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21 Oct 2010, 2:27 pm
Craig28 wrote:
I get all the information on here regarding women being targets or ones that are vulnerable, but no one has stated about the male. He needs to feel safe, he has vulnerabilities too when visting working women. I always make sure that I am going to be safe before I visit a prostitute. Also, men who visit them can leave the women feeling shell shocked, in a state of confusion and anxiety to how people view him when really, like myself, its not our faults why we have to visit them.
it is your choice to visit them. if you feel unsafe or vulnerable, don't go. nobody forces you to visit them, unlike the many many women who are forced to do the job.
anyway, how often do you think that the men who visit prostitutes are ever hurt, compared to how often the sex workers get hurt? big difference there.
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21 Oct 2010, 2:33 pm
Oh, I'm sure you're right, but in your experience how many people are willing to better themselves, considering the amount of effort and time required?
Judging from the way several women responded in this thread the misogyny, refusal to take responsibility and stop blaming others will make make them avoid such men any way - much more than the prostitution issue, so they already drastically limited their dating field.
Is all I'm sayin'
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"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live" (Oscar Wilde)
21 Oct 2010, 2:34 pm
Sallamandrina wrote:
Oh, I'm sure you're right, but in your experience how many people are willing to better themselves, considering the amount of effort and time required?
Judging from the way several women responded in this thread the misogyny, refusal to take responsibility and stop blaming others will make make them avoid such men any way - much more than the prostitution issue, so they already drastically limited their dating field.
Is all I'm sayin'
Judging from the way several women responded in this thread the misogyny, refusal to take responsibility and stop blaming others will make make them avoid such men any way - much more than the prostitution issue, so they already drastically limited their dating field.
Is all I'm sayin'
true!
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21 Oct 2010, 2:49 pm
nthach wrote:
IMO, Sodini's problem was wanting to date people much, much younger than him as well as having little social skills. I mean c'mon, he's staring at a computer most of the day!
agreed!
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