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so if you didn't feel like you had to get a girl....

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Eureka13
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19 Jul 2014, 7:41 pm

Yup. I've initiated every relationship I've ever had since high school but one.

My late fiance and I once discussed our first sexual experiences. When I told him about my first experience being non-consensual on my part, he burst out with "Jesus! Are there ANY women who haven't been raped or molested?" Turns out every woman he'd ever been involved with sexually in his life had either been raped by someone (in most cases, it was date rape), or molested as a teenager by a family member. He truly marveled that any of us ever recovered from the experience and were able to enjoy a normal sex life afterward (a few of the women he'd been involved with actually had NOT been able to do so).



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19 Jul 2014, 7:46 pm

tarantella64 wrote:

1. Don't go "complimenting" women on the street or hit on women who don't know you. That's harassment.
2. Don't "compliment" or hit on women at work. That's harassment.
3. If you're not already in an established relationship, don't touch a woman without asking if it's all right, and don't assume she's okay with whatever it is you're doing because she hasn't tried to fight you off. Ask her. In words. If she doesn't want it, then don't.



thanks officer!



tarantella64
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19 Jul 2014, 8:01 pm

aspiemike wrote:
I have read in this thread or at least an allusion to this idea as well, and Boo even mentioned his side of the story.

Girl and Guy are kissing and making out because they want to. Girl asks guy to go down on her. While he is not comfortable with the idea, he agrees and does it anyway. Later on, he regrets that he did this. Instead of taking responsibility, he then blames her and accuses her of rape. Turn the tables and you have a position that I have dealt with. A girl in the past (not my gf) blamed me for something that she agreed to do, simply because she came to regret that it all happened too soon. There was no alcohol involved either. I left her alone because she asked me to. This isn't the girl who cheated on the boyfriend either (that I referred to previously), but I certainly felt betrayed. I found out later on that she was with her ex the day prior to this incident and spent the night. I believe she put me in a dangerous position.

Me and the gf had a discussion about this once. She feels its unfair to the guy to take all responsibility if girl agrees to do something with him, then regrets it later. I do agree with her on that.


aspiemike, in a situation like that, I'd ask these questions:

Did the guy know the girl was unenthusiastic at first about the idea of going down on him?
If so, did he keep trying to get her to do it anyway?

"Come on, for me, just try it, this once," etc. -- this is not a good idea. Some people will go along with it in order not to make a scene or seem selfish. And then it will blow up in your face, because you pushed someone to do something they didn't really want to do.

If the girl was all, "sure," and went right down, and then later came back and said, "I think that was too fast" -- well, I don't know how you're supposed to know, then. Unless of course there's a huge power differential between the two of you -- say you're her boss -- in which case many would argue that you should just stay the hell away from the whole relationship. It's part of why many business have rules against boss/employee dating.



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19 Jul 2014, 8:10 pm

I'm guessing this is 35 pages of blah blah blah pre-sex verbal & written contract negotiations.. meanwhile, in the real world, people actually enjoy sex & just going with the flow of the moment.


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tarantella64
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19 Jul 2014, 8:19 pm

Eureka13 wrote:
And now we've returned, full circle, to "what constitutes consent?" :)


I know, these things are so impossible to find out, especially for people who want it to remain impossible: :wink: But try this: http://bit.ly/1rAaFi8



Eureka13
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19 Jul 2014, 8:45 pm

LOL!



em_tsuj
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19 Jul 2014, 9:57 pm

AspergianMutantt wrote:
You guys are never going to win,

Its one of those discussions that will never end and no one will ever win.

Both sides are to defensive and or angry to want to let it go.


I agree. I don't see how we can understand each other because our experiences are so different. Just talking past each other, not really listening.



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19 Jul 2014, 10:07 pm

em_tsuj wrote:
AspergianMutantt wrote:
You guys are never going to win,

Its one of those discussions that will never end and no one will ever win.

Both sides are to defensive and or angry to want to let it go.


I agree. I don't see how we can understand each other because our experiences are so different. Just talking past each other, not really listening.


i know i get angry sometimes at some of the stupid (and sometimes just plain mean and hateful) s**t people say in this subforum--but i don't think it's fair to classify what tarantella and eureka have contributed to this and other conversations on similar topics as "angry and defensive" ranting. i think they have both been really patient, tolerant, and understanding in trying to explain the women's side of things, and they get little credit for that which sucks. i think they offer a lot of really helpful advice for which people here should be grateful--and they manage to do it with more grace and diplomacy than most (including myself). how about we cut them a little slack, guys?



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19 Jul 2014, 10:24 pm

starvingartist wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
AspergianMutantt wrote:
You guys are never going to win,

Its one of those discussions that will never end and no one will ever win.

Both sides are to defensive and or angry to want to let it go.


I agree. I don't see how we can understand each other because our experiences are so different. Just talking past each other, not really listening.


i know i get angry sometimes at some of the stupid (and sometimes just plain mean and hateful) sh** people say in this subforum--but i don't think it's fair to classify what tarantella and eureka have contributed to this and other conversations on similar topics as "angry and defensive" ranting. i think they have both been really patient, tolerant, and understanding in trying to explain the women's side of things, and they get little credit for that which sucks. i think they offer a lot of really helpful advice for which people here should be grateful--and they manage to do it with more grace and diplomacy than most (including myself). how about we cut them a little slack, guys?


You added the ranting part, not me. I don't think it is ranting. Please don't use my post to make it sound like I am attacking or against eureka or tarentella. In fact, I understand, from personal experience, what they are talking about and wholeheartedly agree with them. In fact, I do ask before kissing or touching when I am with a new person. Aren't you supposed to communicate during sexual encounters, so that both people have a pleasurable experience? It makes things a hell of a lot easier for me. I suck at reading body language.

What I got from the quote I used is that people are trying very hard to make others understand things from their perspective and are not able to hear things from the other person's perspective. That is what I agree with. There is a lack of empathy based on different life experiences. There is also a great need to be heard and understood, not dismissed or argued with, because we are dealing with a very emotional issue.

Why do you take things so personal, then come out swinging when having a debate?



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19 Jul 2014, 10:34 pm

tarantella64 wrote:

1. Don't go "complimenting" women on the street or hit on women who don't know you. That's harassment.
2. Don't "compliment" or hit on women at work. That's harassment.
3. If you're not already in an established relationship, don't touch a woman without asking if it's all right, and don't assume she's okay with whatever it is you're doing because she hasn't tried to fight you off. Ask her. In words. If she doesn't want it, then don't.



Sadly its not that easy in this world, especially with the complexities of humans. Many women would take a man that stops at every step to ask permission as some sort of wuss. Or that it ruins the moment, etc. That you don't does not mean that there's many out there. At the same time most men would take it as an invitation to escalate. Which we obviously know isn't an 100% total.

The only real thing to do that is forward enough yet safe enough, which to do you'd have to... be good at reading people. Which judging by the forum we are in is something not many are good at. Especially in situations you don't engage with everybody in. Even the most high functioning ASD who hasn't had the practice and experience in this field will show it.



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19 Jul 2014, 10:44 pm

MXH wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:

1. Don't go "complimenting" women on the street or hit on women who don't know you. That's harassment.
2. Don't "compliment" or hit on women at work. That's harassment.
3. If you're not already in an established relationship, don't touch a woman without asking if it's all right, and don't assume she's okay with whatever it is you're doing because she hasn't tried to fight you off. Ask her. In words. If she doesn't want it, then don't.



Sadly its not that easy in this world, especially with the complexities of humans. Many women would take a man that stops at every step to ask permission as some sort of wuss. Or that it ruins the moment, etc. That you don't does not mean that there's many out there. At the same time most men would take it as an invitation to escalate. Which we obviously know isn't an 100% total.

The only real thing to do that is forward enough yet safe enough, which to do you'd have to... be good at reading people. Which judging by the forum we are in is something not many are good at. Especially in situations you don't engage with everybody in. Even the most high functioning ASD who hasn't had the practice and experience in this field will show it.


You gotta ask yourself, then: do you really want to be with someone who expects you to read her mind with high accuracy? If she's annoyed with you for not "just knowing" when and how to touch her when you're still new to each other, what else is she going to expect you to know?



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19 Jul 2014, 10:53 pm

em_tsuj wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
AspergianMutantt wrote:
You guys are never going to win,

Its one of those discussions that will never end and no one will ever win.

Both sides are to defensive and or angry to want to let it go.


I agree. I don't see how we can understand each other because our experiences are so different. Just talking past each other, not really listening.


i know i get angry sometimes at some of the stupid (and sometimes just plain mean and hateful) sh** people say in this subforum--but i don't think it's fair to classify what tarantella and eureka have contributed to this and other conversations on similar topics as "angry and defensive" ranting. i think they have both been really patient, tolerant, and understanding in trying to explain the women's side of things, and they get little credit for that which sucks. i think they offer a lot of really helpful advice for which people here should be grateful--and they manage to do it with more grace and diplomacy than most (including myself). how about we cut them a little slack, guys?


You added the ranting part, not me. I don't think it is ranting. Please don't use my post to make it sound like I am attacking or against eureka or tarentella. In fact, I understand, from personal experience, what they are talking about and wholeheartedly agree with them. In fact, I do ask before kissing or touching when I am with a new person. Aren't you supposed to communicate during sexual encounters, so that both people have a pleasurable experience? It makes things a hell of a lot easier for me. I suck at reading body language.

What I got from the quote I used is that people are trying very hard to make others understand things from their perspective and are not able to hear things from the other person's perspective. That is what I agree with. There is a lack of empathy based on different life experiences. There is also a great need to be heard and understood, not dismissed or argued with, because we are dealing with a very emotional issue.

Why do you take things so personal, then come out swinging when having a debate?


i didn't say i take things personally (i've actually gotten pretty good at not taking things bullies and other types of meanies say personally)--i said i sometimes get angry at the things that are said here, about specific members and about women in general, which is not the same thing. injustice and people being sh***y to others makes me angry, i've always been that way. i'm much more likely to get angry when i witness someone else being attacked than if attacked verbally myself--when people attack me verbally i don't pay much attention to it, i tune it out and dismiss it. i also wouldn't say that i "come out swinging", either. i just call people on their BS when they're being mean or ignorant/hateful, especially if they're doing it to people i like.

people should expect to be heard as long as they can express themselves without being hateful and ignorant. being upset about men/women treating one badly in the past in dating situations is not an excuse to come here and spew vitriol at people trying to offer advice and help. there is a basic level of respect that needs to be met if one expects to be heard by anyone, whether online or in real life. that was my point.



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19 Jul 2014, 10:55 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
MXH wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:

1. Don't go "complimenting" women on the street or hit on women who don't know you. That's harassment.
2. Don't "compliment" or hit on women at work. That's harassment.
3. If you're not already in an established relationship, don't touch a woman without asking if it's all right, and don't assume she's okay with whatever it is you're doing because she hasn't tried to fight you off. Ask her. In words. If she doesn't want it, then don't.



Sadly its not that easy in this world, especially with the complexities of humans. Many women would take a man that stops at every step to ask permission as some sort of wuss. Or that it ruins the moment, etc. That you don't does not mean that there's many out there. At the same time most men would take it as an invitation to escalate. Which we obviously know isn't an 100% total.

The only real thing to do that is forward enough yet safe enough, which to do you'd have to... be good at reading people. Which judging by the forum we are in is something not many are good at. Especially in situations you don't engage with everybody in. Even the most high functioning ASD who hasn't had the practice and experience in this field will show it.


You gotta ask yourself, then: do you really want to be with someone who expects you to read her mind with high accuracy? If she's annoyed with you for not "just knowing" when and how to touch her when you're still new to each other, what else is she going to expect you to know?


It doesn't have to be just new to dating. Heck I've experienced it with someone I had already been with. Even after being told its ok to go for it. And I'm sure I'm not the only to experience this.



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19 Jul 2014, 11:03 pm

MXH, do you mean she said she wanted sex, then changed her mind?



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19 Jul 2014, 11:06 pm

I just want to say thanks, btw, to everyone who answered the original question and to whoever resurrected that old poll. I learned a lot.



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19 Jul 2014, 11:08 pm

Tis womans fault that they attract men for being so fare, so let us cloth them from head to toe, even place a vale upon their face, then place it in our religious laws and texts as preordained and out of mans hands as it is written as the word of god and so is law and so thus must not be questioned. Problem solved.


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